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List:       gentoo-project
Subject:    Re: [gentoo-project] Groups under the Council or Foundation: the structure & processes thereof
From:       Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm () gmail ! com>
Date:       2016-10-16 19:31:16
Message-ID: 2576045.Looy9rtGNx () liwardyna
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On czwartek, 13 października 2016 17:27:39 CEST Michał Górny wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:15:47 -0400
> 
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 13, 2016 5:16:48 AM EDT Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > 2.  The Foundation needs to focus first and foremost on keeping the
> > > lights on.  Right now there are 10 periodic activities that the
> > > Foundation needs to perform to be in compliance with the law/etc, and
> > > according to the public records of the Foundation we're current on 6
> > > of them.  Not all are equally important, and maybe we're just bad at
> > > recordkeeping, but it isn't a great sign.  (
> > > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Activity_Tracker )
> > 
> > This is self inflicted. Driving people away who may help keep the
> > foundation in order.  If you look at the past, it was the foundation
> > neglect that got me involved...
> > 
> > I did things in a brief period that others had not up till that point.
> > Including Foundation Reinstatement with New Mexico, Obtaining a Bank
> > Account, and formal by law review and modification on -nfp. So the draft
> > that existed since the Foundation was created could become adopted and
> > official. As it was just after I resigned. I also found Gentoo's EIN/TIN
> > number.
> > 
> > This was all in ~6 months. Had I remained as a Trustee, things with the
> > IRS
> > and other would have been in order. That things are not in order, shows
> > when you drive one away, another does not always replace them. The
> > foundation suffered, and Gentoo Java.
> > 
> > For what benefit? For the benefit of saving the distro from a potential
> > toxic person. Which ends up just setting things back.
> > 
> > > 3.  I've yet to see any evidence that Comrel has actually done
> > > anything wrong.
> > 
> > Which is why an appeal is pointless with some commenting being on the
> > council.
> > 
> > I have factually shown Comrel does not follow procedures. Not in 2008, nor
> > 2015. That a council member can make a statement that comrel has done no
> > wrong.  Where do you go from there?
> > 
> > Facts have been presented about Comrel not following policy. Yet such a
> > comment from a council member who keeps talking about appeal. It really
> > goes to show the root of the problems, much deeper than just comrel.
> > 
> > Flat out denial....
> > 
> > >  We also have an active thread where
> > > 
> > > somebody is complaining about Comrel but refuses to actually appeal,
> > > and has commented in the thread that he thinks it is unlikely that his
> > > appeal would be successful.
> > 
> > I have publicly polled the sentiment of the community and some were
> > members of the council that would be voting on any appeal. The comments
> > show how people feel on the matter. An appeal would be further waste of
> > time. Given the flat out denial to comrel not following policy, yet
> > saying they do no wrong.
> > 
> > So if I do not follow policy, do not use repoman and break things in tree.
> > I am not doing wrong? Failure to follow policy is doing wrong...
> > 
> > If the general community much less council member do not see that
> > publicly.
> > What point is there to any appeal?
> > 
> > > I think there is room for improvement here, but I think it would be a
> > > mistake to do something drastic.
> > 
> > And that is why an appeal is pointless. You are bias and not open minded.
> > What if you are wrong? What if it would be a mistake to NOT do something
> > drastic?
> No, the appeal is pointless because it's far too late for it to make
> any sense. As you say, it was 8 years ago. Get over it. Move on with
> your life. It's all fun to hear stories of the past but hearing random
> parts of your story over and over again is past bearing of most of
> the people on this mailing list, other mailing lists, IRC and wherever
> you keep sending them.
> 
> So, please stop. If you really want to tell your story so much, write
> a consistent, complete autobiography with all the bits in one place. If
> you want to do something about Gentoo, set up a proper plan and start
> working on it. Make things happen by hard work and cooperation, rather
> than complaints, whining, accusations, preaching and everything else
> you seem to be doing around here.
> 
> And do something about your ego. Yes, we know you were the most
> important person in the whole world, you already told us that. You
> and your old friends, most of whom are not involved in Gentoo anymore.
> That's all cool but that's the past. Now there are new people
> in Gentoo, whether you like it or not. Those new people have put a lot
> of effort into various aspects of Gentoo. Now those people are Gentoo
> developers, and you are a newcomer to them.
> 
> If you want to do something about Gentoo, then do it. But start
> respecting the others, not only the people who made up Gentoo back
> in your days, and stop expecting to suddenly get all the privileges
> that you had many years ago back.
> 
> Gentoo developers aren't perfect. We can live with many toxic people
> because they are able to give Gentoo something in return. However, if
> the potential issues clearly overrule the potential benefit...

+1.
This had to be said..
Perhaps Michał should have picked different words here and there but I can 
totally get the frustration. Ego is always the best utilized in code.

-- 
regards
MM
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