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List: gentoo-project
Subject: Re: [gentoo-project] Groups under the Council or Foundation: the structure & processes thereof
From: Raymond Jennings <shentino () gmail ! com>
Date: 2016-10-16 20:03:25
Message-ID: CAGDaZ_rEZ_RyOywcVtk3r+2V=tt=O=LqOnKJ8Fa2+6yTXG7Hqg () mail ! gmail ! com
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I'd...kinda have to agreeably point out that even if william hadn't been
force-retired by comrel, undertakers would have gotten him anyway for
inactivity.
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Maciej Mrozowski <reavertm@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On czwartek, 13 pa=C5=BAdziernika 2016 17:27:39 CEST Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3r=
ny wrote:
> > On Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:15:47 -0400
> >
> > "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote:
> > > On Thursday, October 13, 2016 5:16:48 AM EDT Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > > 2. The Foundation needs to focus first and foremost on keeping the
> > > > lights on. Right now there are 10 periodic activities that the
> > > > Foundation needs to perform to be in compliance with the law/etc, a=
nd
> > > > according to the public records of the Foundation we're current on =
6
> > > > of them. Not all are equally important, and maybe we're just bad a=
t
> > > > recordkeeping, but it isn't a great sign. (
> > > > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Activity_Tracker )
> > >
> > > This is self inflicted. Driving people away who may help keep the
> > > foundation in order. If you look at the past, it was the foundation
> > > neglect that got me involved...
> > >
> > > I did things in a brief period that others had not up till that point=
.
> > > Including Foundation Reinstatement with New Mexico, Obtaining a Bank
> > > Account, and formal by law review and modification on -nfp. So the
> draft
> > > that existed since the Foundation was created could become adopted an=
d
> > > official. As it was just after I resigned. I also found Gentoo's
> EIN/TIN
> > > number.
> > >
> > > This was all in ~6 months. Had I remained as a Trustee, things with t=
he
> > > IRS
> > > and other would have been in order. That things are not in order, sho=
ws
> > > when you drive one away, another does not always replace them. The
> > > foundation suffered, and Gentoo Java.
> > >
> > > For what benefit? For the benefit of saving the distro from a potenti=
al
> > > toxic person. Which ends up just setting things back.
> > >
> > > > 3. I've yet to see any evidence that Comrel has actually done
> > > > anything wrong.
> > >
> > > Which is why an appeal is pointless with some commenting being on the
> > > council.
> > >
> > > I have factually shown Comrel does not follow procedures. Not in 2008=
,
> nor
> > > 2015. That a council member can make a statement that comrel has done
> no
> > > wrong. Where do you go from there?
> > >
> > > Facts have been presented about Comrel not following policy. Yet such=
a
> > > comment from a council member who keeps talking about appeal. It real=
ly
> > > goes to show the root of the problems, much deeper than just comrel.
> > >
> > > Flat out denial....
> > >
> > > > We also have an active thread where
> > > >
> > > > somebody is complaining about Comrel but refuses to actually appeal=
,
> > > > and has commented in the thread that he thinks it is unlikely that
> his
> > > > appeal would be successful.
> > >
> > > I have publicly polled the sentiment of the community and some were
> > > members of the council that would be voting on any appeal. The commen=
ts
> > > show how people feel on the matter. An appeal would be further waste =
of
> > > time. Given the flat out denial to comrel not following policy, yet
> > > saying they do no wrong.
> > >
> > > So if I do not follow policy, do not use repoman and break things in
> tree.
> > > I am not doing wrong? Failure to follow policy is doing wrong...
> > >
> > > If the general community much less council member do not see that
> > > publicly.
> > > What point is there to any appeal?
> > >
> > > > I think there is room for improvement here, but I think it would be=
a
> > > > mistake to do something drastic.
> > >
> > > And that is why an appeal is pointless. You are bias and not open
> minded.
> > > What if you are wrong? What if it would be a mistake to NOT do
> something
> > > drastic?
> > No, the appeal is pointless because it's far too late for it to make
> > any sense. As you say, it was 8 years ago. Get over it. Move on with
> > your life. It's all fun to hear stories of the past but hearing random
> > parts of your story over and over again is past bearing of most of
> > the people on this mailing list, other mailing lists, IRC and wherever
> > you keep sending them.
> >
> > So, please stop. If you really want to tell your story so much, write
> > a consistent, complete autobiography with all the bits in one place. If
> > you want to do something about Gentoo, set up a proper plan and start
> > working on it. Make things happen by hard work and cooperation, rather
> > than complaints, whining, accusations, preaching and everything else
> > you seem to be doing around here.
> >
> > And do something about your ego. Yes, we know you were the most
> > important person in the whole world, you already told us that. You
> > and your old friends, most of whom are not involved in Gentoo anymore.
> > That's all cool but that's the past. Now there are new people
> > in Gentoo, whether you like it or not. Those new people have put a lot
> > of effort into various aspects of Gentoo. Now those people are Gentoo
> > developers, and you are a newcomer to them.
> >
> > If you want to do something about Gentoo, then do it. But start
> > respecting the others, not only the people who made up Gentoo back
> > in your days, and stop expecting to suddenly get all the privileges
> > that you had many years ago back.
> >
> > Gentoo developers aren't perfect. We can live with many toxic people
> > because they are able to give Gentoo something in return. However, if
> > the potential issues clearly overrule the potential benefit...
>
> +1.
> This had to be said..
> Perhaps Micha=C5=82 should have picked different words here and there but=
I can
> totally get the frustration. Ego is always the best utilized in code.
>
> --
> regards
> MM
[Attachment #3 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr">I'd...kinda have to agreeably point out that even if william \
hadn't been force-retired by comrel, undertakers would have gotten him anyway for \
inactivity.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct \
16, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Maciej Mrozowski <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:reavertm@gmail.com" target="_blank">reavertm@gmail.com</a>></span> \
wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px \
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On czwartek, 13 października 2016 17:27:39 CEST Michał \
Górny wrote:<br> > On Thu, 13 Oct 2016 10:15:47 -0400<br>
><br>
> "William L. Thomson Jr." <<a \
href="mailto:wlt-ml@o-sinc.com">wlt-ml@o-sinc.com</a>> wrote:<br> > > On \
Thursday, October 13, 2016 5:16:48 AM EDT Rich Freeman wrote:<br> > > > 2. \
The Foundation needs to focus first and foremost on keeping the<br> > > > \
lights on. Right now there are 10 periodic activities that the<br> > > > \
Foundation needs to perform to be in compliance with the law/etc, and<br> > > \
> according to the public records of the Foundation we're current on 6<br> \
> > > of them. Not all are equally important, and maybe we're just bad \
at<br> > > > recordkeeping, but it isn't a great sign. (<br>
> > > <a href="https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Activity_Tracker" \
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/<wbr>Foundation:Activity_Tracker</a> \
)<br> > ><br>
> > This is self inflicted. Driving people away who may help keep the<br>
> > foundation in order. If you look at the past, it was the foundation<br>
> > neglect that got me involved...<br>
> ><br>
> > I did things in a brief period that others had not up till that point.<br>
> > Including Foundation Reinstatement with New Mexico, Obtaining a Bank<br>
> > Account, and formal by law review and modification on -nfp. So the \
draft<br> > > that existed since the Foundation was created could become \
adopted and<br> > > official. As it was just after I resigned. I also found \
Gentoo's EIN/TIN<br> > > number.<br>
> ><br>
> > This was all in ~6 months. Had I remained as a Trustee, things with the<br>
> > IRS<br>
> > and other would have been in order. That things are not in order, shows<br>
> > when you drive one away, another does not always replace them. The<br>
> > foundation suffered, and Gentoo Java.<br>
> ><br>
> > For what benefit? For the benefit of saving the distro from a potential<br>
> > toxic person. Which ends up just setting things back.<br>
> ><br>
> > > 3. I've yet to see any evidence that Comrel has actually \
done<br> > > > anything wrong.<br>
> ><br>
> > Which is why an appeal is pointless with some commenting being on the<br>
> > council.<br>
> ><br>
> > I have factually shown Comrel does not follow procedures. Not in 2008, \
nor<br> > > 2015. That a council member can make a statement that comrel has \
done no<br> > > wrong. Where do you go from there?<br>
> ><br>
> > Facts have been presented about Comrel not following policy. Yet such a<br>
> > comment from a council member who keeps talking about appeal. It really<br>
> > goes to show the root of the problems, much deeper than just comrel.<br>
> ><br>
> > Flat out denial....<br>
> ><br>
> > > We also have an active thread where<br>
> > ><br>
> > > somebody is complaining about Comrel but refuses to actually \
appeal,<br> > > > and has commented in the thread that he thinks it is \
unlikely that his<br> > > > appeal would be successful.<br>
> ><br>
> > I have publicly polled the sentiment of the community and some were<br>
> > members of the council that would be voting on any appeal. The comments<br>
> > show how people feel on the matter. An appeal would be further waste of<br>
> > time. Given the flat out denial to comrel not following policy, yet<br>
> > saying they do no wrong.<br>
> ><br>
> > So if I do not follow policy, do not use repoman and break things in \
tree.<br> > > I am not doing wrong? Failure to follow policy is doing \
wrong...<br> > ><br>
> > If the general community much less council member do not see that<br>
> > publicly.<br>
> > What point is there to any appeal?<br>
> ><br>
> > > I think there is room for improvement here, but I think it would be \
a<br> > > > mistake to do something drastic.<br>
> ><br>
> > And that is why an appeal is pointless. You are bias and not open \
minded.<br> > > What if you are wrong? What if it would be a mistake to NOT do \
something<br> > > drastic?<br>
> No, the appeal is pointless because it's far too late for it to make<br>
> any sense. As you say, it was 8 years ago. Get over it. Move on with<br>
> your life. It's all fun to hear stories of the past but hearing random<br>
> parts of your story over and over again is past bearing of most of<br>
> the people on this mailing list, other mailing lists, IRC and wherever<br>
> you keep sending them.<br>
><br>
> So, please stop. If you really want to tell your story so much, write<br>
> a consistent, complete autobiography with all the bits in one place. If<br>
> you want to do something about Gentoo, set up a proper plan and start<br>
> working on it. Make things happen by hard work and cooperation, rather<br>
> than complaints, whining, accusations, preaching and everything else<br>
> you seem to be doing around here.<br>
><br>
> And do something about your ego. Yes, we know you were the most<br>
> important person in the whole world, you already told us that. You<br>
> and your old friends, most of whom are not involved in Gentoo anymore.<br>
> That's all cool but that's the past. Now there are new people<br>
> in Gentoo, whether you like it or not. Those new people have put a lot<br>
> of effort into various aspects of Gentoo. Now those people are Gentoo<br>
> developers, and you are a newcomer to them.<br>
><br>
> If you want to do something about Gentoo, then do it. But start<br>
> respecting the others, not only the people who made up Gentoo back<br>
> in your days, and stop expecting to suddenly get all the privileges<br>
> that you had many years ago back.<br>
><br>
> Gentoo developers aren't perfect. We can live with many toxic people<br>
> because they are able to give Gentoo something in return. However, if<br>
> the potential issues clearly overrule the potential benefit...<br>
<br>
+1.<br>
This had to be said..<br>
Perhaps Michał should have picked different words here and there but I can<br>
totally get the frustration. Ego is always the best utilized in code.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
regards<br>
MM</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
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