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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Running KDE apps on Apple OS X
From:       Ben Cooksley <bcooksley () kde ! org>
Date:       2014-03-12 20:15:47
Message-ID: CA+XidOGP4-=mPT_w7pq87AmbOy-kaoZQMNCx6gzNj5Hxf0fsDg () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 7:44 AM, John Layt <jlayt@kde.org> wrote:
> Some random/long thoughts on KDE on Mac, seeing as I'm a sometimes Qt
> Mac developer and a KDE-on-Mac user, subscribed to the KDE Mac list,
> was the guy who got the outdated website taken down as it was
> confusing people, and got a bit burnt-out repeatedly trying to get Mac
> people to engage with KDE and each other.

Hi John,

>
> I use Kate extensively on Mac, and Dolphin when Finder is too
> brain-dead.  What frustrates me most is having to rebuild Macports all
> the time, it takes forever and is not a good way to win over normal
> users.  It can also screw with my Qt test builds.  We need a "normal"
> install method on Mac for normal end-users and neither Macports or
> Homebrew or Fink provide this.  They're hacker tools still, even after
> all these years, not end-user tools.  Other projects like LibreOffice
> have standalone Mac binary installers that they produce themselves (as
> does Marble already) as Macports/etc are not a viable distribution
> option for them.  While the Windows Installer is not a great UX for
> normal users, it's beats the options on Mac hands down, I wish we had
> such an option on Mac.  Taking on building our code on Mac for
> ourselves can only improve the situation, even if just by freeing the
> Macports/Homebrew/Fink guys up a little to work on integration and
> binary distribution.
>
> Macports: they try hard to keep up with releases, and its the only
> reliable semi-easy way to install KDE on Mac, but we keep breaking
> things for them, and I'm not sure I've seen many efforts to push
> patches upstream.  They were not connected in to the KDE community at
> all, in spite of my trying to encourage them in the distant past to
> join the kde-mac list to coordinate things and ask us questions when
> we break stuff, and for us to ask questions when we need to add Mac
> support.  Which is why it's so good to see Ian pushing for this, we
> need people who know both communities to build that link.
>
> Homebrew looked promising when I looked for alternatives to Macports,
> especially with prominent ex-KDE people running it, but the problem
> there was no official support, you can't install KDE from the main
> repo.  Last time I tried I couldn't figure out how to use any of the
> forks that did.  Good news here is that there is now an effort to
> unite all the forks and make an official repo (see
> https://github.com/adymo/homebrew-kde/issues/11), with well-know KDE
> peeps adymo and haraldf involved and currently pushing patches
> upstream to fix Mac build issues.  But nary a peep on the kde-mac
> list, so others may not know what's going on.
>
> Fink:  No idea on the current status, last time I tried years back
> they were well out-of-date so I stuck with Macports.
>
> And there's the problem with KDE on Mac in a nutshell: three different
> build technologies, designed for hackers, with little coordination
> between them or us.  So I beg you all: SUBSCRIBE TO THE KDE-MAC LIST
> AND CO-ORDINATE THERE!  COMMUNICATE!  I want our Mac group to revive,
> and if we work together to solve problems and maintain the upstream
> KDE build in KDE with CI to keep them building then it's a lot less
> work downstream!  We need to build the same relationship with the Mac
> builders as we have with the Linux disto packagers, we build and
> maintain the code, they package and distribute.
>
> What to do at the KDE end?
>
> We have a wiki at http://community.kde.org/Mac that we need to keep
> updated as things change, as that is where mac.kde.org redirects.  We
> also have the forum at http://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php?f=60, but
> for devs please use the list at
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-mac.  I can't emphasise
> enough: if everyone who's doing stuff with KDE-on-Mac were to talk to
> each other there, there would be a lot less work needed!
>
> Qt5/KF5 may improve things, but we still need to build infrastructure
> to support Mac.
>
> We need CI Mac builds to test KF5 stuff and prevent Linuxisms and
> build breakers from creeping in over time, e.g. to ensure the creation
> of Mac Frameworks (a special type of library) works as you need to
> follow strict include rules that Linux or Windows don't need.  It's
> part of our "KF5 everywhere Qt is" strategy.  Advanced Mac platform
> integration will also need CI builds to check they don't get broken by
> Linux-focussed devs :-)

In terms of the bare minimum requirements of the CI system itself (not
taking into account anything being built) the following is needed.
I'm assuming it is all available?

- Java (either Oracle or IcedTea)
- Python (with lxml support)
- RSync
- SSH
- Git
- Subversion
- Bazaar

The code to initiate a testing environment will probably also need
customisation - Xvfb and Openbox are obviously not necessary or usable
on Mac (if they're even available)

>
> We need remote gui or shell access to Macs to allow selected devs to
> do test builds of their apps, or at least some way to trigger feature
> branch builds in the CI from a dashboard.  Failing CI after you've
> done a blind untested Mac commit is just asking for trouble.

Technically Jenkins itself is capable of offering such a capability -
however our scripts would need expanding to handle this, and we'd
probably need increased system capacity.

>
> You can run Mac in VM's on Mac, recent OSX versions grant a license to
> do this without paying extra, so a single machine can support multiple
> build VM's.  I can dig up the details.  I run Mac in a VM on my Linux
> desktop, it is possible, but breaks the license and so is not an
> option for KDE CI (I do have an old slow Macbook, so I paid for it and
> feel semi-legal).
>
> We need to buy Mac hardware to run as part of the CI system (or hire
> it if a data centre offers it), and perhaps also provide remote
> access.  Intevation did offer time on their build hardware at one
> point but we failed to take them up on it.  I have suggested a number
> of times we run a crowd-funding for 2-4 Mac Mini's (EURO 800 each for i7
> w/ 4GB) which are perfect for the job and widely used for this
> purpose.  Homebrew was very successful doing a fundraiser to set up
> their build farm, talk to Mike McQuiad about it.  We can do it as
> well, we don't ask our users for money often enough, they're more than
> willing to pay a little for specific targets like this.

Assuming that Linux build times are consistent with Mac times, then 2
systems should be sufficient if the following is correct.
http://build.kde.org/label/LINBUILDER/load-statistics?type=min

I would suggest a bare minimum of 8gb of RAM however - building Webkit
in both Qt 4 and Qt 5 can be quite a memory hog.

Please note that if we do purchase such systems then we need to find a
place to host them - and someone to look after them should they need
to be moved or require hardware maintenance (disk failures, etc).
Ideally we would hire them from a DC which offers that.

Note that once we have said systems available we'll need to
drastically reconfigure the CI system to use "multi-configuration
projects" instead of the current "free-style software projects" we
currently use for most builds. Examples of this can be seen with the
builds of Trojita, Calligra (master) and KWindowSystem (KF5).

>
> Kolab and other companies may be interested in assisting and could be
> approached (i.e. will the Munich contract require Kontact on Mac?).
> KDAB/Till has a lot of expertise in this area but little time now.  I
> think KDAB had dmg packages for Kontact for easy install, but I don't
> know what the status there is.
>
> Qt is having maintenance issues on Mac themselves, Digia has limited
> resources, and there seems few community-led contributions, but they
> do have CI and may be able to offer advice.
>
> I really want us on Mac, when you see how rubbish or locked-down their
> apps are you realise we could make a decent splash there.  Now I
> regularly code for and build Qt over there I feel a lot more
> comfortable as a conduit if needed.  I'm willing to be a guinea pig in
> trying to get kdesrc-build working on Mac for our devs and CI to use,
> heck I'm willing to switch to Mac for all my KF5 dev work if needed!
> I just need someone who knows what they're doing to point me in the
> right direction and answer my confused cries for help :-)
>
> But what we need most right now is a Mac experienced sysadmin to take
> on setting up and maintaining the Mac infrastructure, then a
> fundraiser to get the hardware.  And for people to start talking to
> each other on kde-mac.
>
> Cheers!
>
> John.

Thanks,
Ben

>
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