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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Running KDE apps on Apple OS X
From:       John Layt <jlayt () kde ! org>
Date:       2014-03-12 18:44:43
Message-ID: CAM1DM6kBjsW_2BRqV1ZEtxcPMhUYxdj7qm87FfPxr7fKEBCT-g () mail ! gmail ! com
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Some random/long thoughts on KDE on Mac, seeing as I'm a sometimes Qt
Mac developer and a KDE-on-Mac user, subscribed to the KDE Mac list,
was the guy who got the outdated website taken down as it was
confusing people, and got a bit burnt-out repeatedly trying to get Mac
people to engage with KDE and each other.

I use Kate extensively on Mac, and Dolphin when Finder is too
brain-dead.  What frustrates me most is having to rebuild Macports all
the time, it takes forever and is not a good way to win over normal
users.  It can also screw with my Qt test builds.  We need a "normal"
install method on Mac for normal end-users and neither Macports or
Homebrew or Fink provide this.  They're hacker tools still, even after
all these years, not end-user tools.  Other projects like LibreOffice
have standalone Mac binary installers that they produce themselves (as
does Marble already) as Macports/etc are not a viable distribution
option for them.  While the Windows Installer is not a great UX for
normal users, it's beats the options on Mac hands down, I wish we had
such an option on Mac.  Taking on building our code on Mac for
ourselves can only improve the situation, even if just by freeing the
Macports/Homebrew/Fink guys up a little to work on integration and
binary distribution.

Macports: they try hard to keep up with releases, and its the only
reliable semi-easy way to install KDE on Mac, but we keep breaking
things for them, and I'm not sure I've seen many efforts to push
patches upstream.  They were not connected in to the KDE community at
all, in spite of my trying to encourage them in the distant past to
join the kde-mac list to coordinate things and ask us questions when
we break stuff, and for us to ask questions when we need to add Mac
support.  Which is why it's so good to see Ian pushing for this, we
need people who know both communities to build that link.

Homebrew looked promising when I looked for alternatives to Macports,
especially with prominent ex-KDE people running it, but the problem
there was no official support, you can't install KDE from the main
repo.  Last time I tried I couldn't figure out how to use any of the
forks that did.  Good news here is that there is now an effort to
unite all the forks and make an official repo (see
https://github.com/adymo/homebrew-kde/issues/11), with well-know KDE
peeps adymo and haraldf involved and currently pushing patches
upstream to fix Mac build issues.  But nary a peep on the kde-mac
list, so others may not know what's going on.

Fink:  No idea on the current status, last time I tried years back
they were well out-of-date so I stuck with Macports.

And there's the problem with KDE on Mac in a nutshell: three different
build technologies, designed for hackers, with little coordination
between them or us.  So I beg you all: SUBSCRIBE TO THE KDE-MAC LIST
AND CO-ORDINATE THERE!  COMMUNICATE!  I want our Mac group to revive,
and if we work together to solve problems and maintain the upstream
KDE build in KDE with CI to keep them building then it's a lot less
work downstream!  We need to build the same relationship with the Mac
builders as we have with the Linux disto packagers, we build and
maintain the code, they package and distribute.

What to do at the KDE end?

We have a wiki at http://community.kde.org/Mac that we need to keep
updated as things change, as that is where mac.kde.org redirects.  We
also have the forum at http://forum.kde.org/viewforum.php?f=60, but
for devs please use the list at
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-mac.  I can't emphasise
enough: if everyone who's doing stuff with KDE-on-Mac were to talk to
each other there, there would be a lot less work needed!

Qt5/KF5 may improve things, but we still need to build infrastructure
to support Mac.

We need CI Mac builds to test KF5 stuff and prevent Linuxisms and
build breakers from creeping in over time, e.g. to ensure the creation
of Mac Frameworks (a special type of library) works as you need to
follow strict include rules that Linux or Windows don't need.  It's
part of our "KF5 everywhere Qt is" strategy.  Advanced Mac platform
integration will also need CI builds to check they don't get broken by
Linux-focussed devs :-)

We need remote gui or shell access to Macs to allow selected devs to
do test builds of their apps, or at least some way to trigger feature
branch builds in the CI from a dashboard.  Failing CI after you've
done a blind untested Mac commit is just asking for trouble.

You can run Mac in VM's on Mac, recent OSX versions grant a license to
do this without paying extra, so a single machine can support multiple
build VM's.  I can dig up the details.  I run Mac in a VM on my Linux
desktop, it is possible, but breaks the license and so is not an
option for KDE CI (I do have an old slow Macbook, so I paid for it and
feel semi-legal).

We need to buy Mac hardware to run as part of the CI system (or hire
it if a data centre offers it), and perhaps also provide remote
access.  Intevation did offer time on their build hardware at one
point but we failed to take them up on it.  I have suggested a number
of times we run a crowd-funding for 2-4 Mac Mini's (EURO 800 each for i7
w/ 4GB) which are perfect for the job and widely used for this
purpose.  Homebrew was very successful doing a fundraiser to set up
their build farm, talk to Mike McQuiad about it.  We can do it as
well, we don't ask our users for money often enough, they're more than
willing to pay a little for specific targets like this.

Kolab and other companies may be interested in assisting and could be
approached (i.e. will the Munich contract require Kontact on Mac?).
KDAB/Till has a lot of expertise in this area but little time now.  I
think KDAB had dmg packages for Kontact for easy install, but I don't
know what the status there is.

Qt is having maintenance issues on Mac themselves, Digia has limited
resources, and there seems few community-led contributions, but they
do have CI and may be able to offer advice.

I really want us on Mac, when you see how rubbish or locked-down their
apps are you realise we could make a decent splash there.  Now I
regularly code for and build Qt over there I feel a lot more
comfortable as a conduit if needed.  I'm willing to be a guinea pig in
trying to get kdesrc-build working on Mac for our devs and CI to use,
heck I'm willing to switch to Mac for all my KF5 dev work if needed!
I just need someone who knows what they're doing to point me in the
right direction and answer my confused cries for help :-)

But what we need most right now is a Mac experienced sysadmin to take
on setting up and maintaining the Mac infrastructure, then a
fundraiser to get the hardware.  And for people to start talking to
each other on kde-mac.

Cheers!

John.

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