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List:       kde
Subject:    RE: KDE2 license policy
From:       Patrick O Neil <patrick.oneil () hci ! utah ! edu>
Date:       2000-08-04 23:47:33
[Download RAW message or body]

I don't want to flog a dead horse here, but...why do you use ANY KDE app?
Why use
KDE at all if you don't care about how your apps integrate with your
environment?

If it doesn't matter to you, remove KDE, install windowmaker, qt, gtk and
run your
apps.  Nothing will integrate well, though everything will run.  You will
also save
drive space.  

The whole point to the ENVIRONMENT part of KDE  (and GNOME) is integration
of function
and apps.  Consistency.  All the niceties of other modern systems.  If that
doesn't
matter to you, then there is no point to installing the _environment_ in the
first
place, regardless of which one.  

I have a lot of non-kde apps on my system.  I would love for each of the
graphical
apps to be fully integrated with the ENVIRONMENT of KDE (or Gnome if I was
using
that).  A GUI inteface is NOT an app, it is window dressing and can be
changed.  
A GUI is NOT sacrosanct.  It is merely a graphical interface to the REAL
app.
Why shouldn't any and ALL GUIs be alterable/modifiable so as to work with
the
environment one prefers - so they ALL use the SAME widget set.  This doesn't

change the app, just the look and feel.  The app is still there doing what
it
always did only now someone changed its GUI.

I like Xephem.  Nice astronomy app but I freakin' HATE the 
motif GUI.  I would MUCH prefer even a gtk frontend, though better yet, a qt
frontend to it.  I use it but, damn it, it is FUGLY and not integratable
into
my overal environment.  Now that StarOffice is going GPL, I am hoping
someone 
will replace _its'_ GUI with a qt-based one too.  It would STILL run,
regardless of
GUI, but with a change, it would fit into the ENVIRONMENT.  Once KOffice is
really 
up to snuff, can nicely import and export word documents (fruits of
StarOffice 
GPL, one hopes), and if I like it, I will switch to it, but until that time,

I use StarOffice. I do NOT like how it doesn't go with my environment
(ignoring 
for the moment that Start button crap and its monolithic design). 

As for the rest, if it is GPL, then it doesn't matter what the personal
feelings
of the creator(s) are, the GPL stipulates exactly what can be done with the
code.
In any case, as I read an interview with one of the creators of Gimp (doing
a
google search for kimageshope brought up the link about an interview with
one
of the Gimp creators), he specifically stated that they were trying to untie
the
code from requiring any particular environment.  As a matter of fact, the
tone
of that interview, plus the actual content, indicated that he (or they)
would NOT 
be upset if someone did what I mentioned.

I am not concerned with pissing off Stallman or others of his radical ilk,
for 
instance.  It is impossible to NOT piss them off unless you agree with
EVERYTHING 
that comes out of his mouth.  What he has is opinion, not LAW FROM ON HIGH.
As 
has also come out in some of these posts, there are those in the Gnome
"camp" 
that are rabidly against KDE and anything qt, clones of Stallman, and those
with 
a more reasonable turn of mind.  Why should one cave in to the one group and
ignore
the other?  Why give ONE SUBSET so much pull rather than do what the
majority of
more reasonable minds are agreeable with or unconcerned about?   Change the
GUI widget set would NOT change the actual app, just its look, feel, etc.  
Big deal.

Gnome and KDE are separate, and because of silly political, unreasonable
nonsense, at odds with each other, irrespective of a subset of the groups
that are not problematic.  If they (Gimpsters) don't like what someone does 
with GPL code for personal reasons or political reasons, rather than LEGAL 
reasons, then they should not have released the code under the GPL.  They 
should have "protected" it from "perversion".  They have to take the thorns 
as well as the bud with their roses.  

I shall do what I will, which may or may not be to port gimp to qt.  With
the time and patience, I am sure I can do it, newbie that I am.  When 
KimageShop is available and useable, and it does what gimp does equally
well,
then the point is moot and I wont bother.  I guess it depends on whether 
someone else beats me to it or if Kimageshop beats me (which could EASILY 
be likely).  Someone TELLING me not to do something that is CLEARLY allowed
by the GPL and reasonable is just about the best way in the world to
convince
me to do it faster.  What, are they going to beat me up?  

-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Ogilvie
To: KDE general mailing list
Sent: 8/4/00 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: KDE2 license policy

On Sat, 05 Aug 2000, Patrick O Neil wrote:
> No.  Unless you are constantly changing window managers and/or
environments,
> then
> all you would do is download the version that integrates properly with
your 
> selected environment.  

All very well in theory, but, Patrick, many applications only have one
version,
for either Gnome or KDE, and don't have two versions.  Without the
choice to
download the version I want, I have to just use the other one.
Currently, I
have applications like Xchat, and Download for X, both of which use
Gnome. 
They don't appear to be available for KDE,  and why should I care? They
are on
my Kpanel, I click on them, they work.  I don't have to change window
managers,
or anything that complicated, I just run them from whatever enviroment
or
window manager I am using, including things like Window maker.

Sure, they use a slightly different skin.... oh, if only I could get the
same
skins on the KDE version I use. (I know KDE2 will have better skin
support)

IMHO
I am also very sure that developers should be respected, and if they
don't like
someone rewriting their code, then don't.

Glen Ogilive
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