[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] 

List:       kde-bugs-dist
Subject:    [Bug 260360] Panels and windows hidden behind desktop background at
From:       Duncan <1i5t5.duncan () cox ! net>
Date:       2011-11-21 4:16:47
Message-ID: E1RSLJH-0004mf-5Q () bugs ! kde ! org
[Download RAW message or body]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=260360


Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> changed:

           What    |Removed                     |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 CC|                            |1i5t5.duncan@cox.net




--- Comment #71 from Duncan <1i5t5 duncan cox net>  2011-11-21 04:16:45 ---
(In reply to comment #70)
> When there is no dev here to read a bug report and tells us what information he
> needs to fix the bug, how shoul a normal user know this? I only posted the
> plasma-desktop-appletsrc after a long search for the reason of the bug. It was
> simply just luck.

> Many people tried to help to solve this bug, but till now (after almost a year)
> no developer ever responded.

> Thanks again for fixing this annoying and critical bug.

I'm glad the bug is fixed, too... but just to set the record straight, a number
of devs posted here.

If you check the emails, Martin G has a kde email address, which should be
checkable by anyone who can comment. (Simply hovering over the name in the
comment header provides an email address in the status line, here, that anyone
logged in should be able to check.)  Channi is also a kde dev, as I've seen
that name in various kde blogs, etc.  I believe Thomas L is as well, tho I'm
not as sure on that.  Andreas KH is a gentoo/kde project dev/maintainer, not
kde but a distro dev, with gentoo obvious in his email, and of course Aaron JS
is the kde/plasma project lead dev and a highly visible kde spokeperson.

The problem was, this was a very tough bug.  Nobody (including the devs) had a
clue what was causing it, it appeared at the intersection between two kde
projects (kwin, the window manager, and plasma, the desktop) and it wasn't
obvious which was at fault, the devs weren't initially seeing it (thus
explaining how it got in a release in the first place), and because it started
before kde's switchover to git, bisecting the problem wouldn't have been
particularly easy for the power user types either.  (Git makes that sort of
thing MUCH easier, and while I'm no coder, I've been filing and bisecting
kernel bugs for quite awhile now, and even one kde bug already, now that it's
on git.)

I didn't have this bug, only coming across it after seeing a gentoo backporting
patch mention it, but reading it was like reading a mystery novel, seeing the
cluses appear one by one and trying to guess at the bug, myself.  Sometimes
bugs, even critical bugs, *ARE* tough, taking some time to track down and kill,
and this was simply one of them!

Meanwhile, while there were definitely devs working on trying to fix this,
unfortunately, developer comments also helped make the situation worse.  Yes, I
understand that not all devs like the voting system (there was quite a
discussion about it on the gentoo-dev list that I followed.. as a user),
because they try to fix all bugs regardless, and some are just tougher to fix
than others, but disparaging bug voting without some sort of an explanation or
(as said explanation has likely been repeated many times) some LINK to a
reasonable explanation only confuses users who are in good faith trying to
report bugs and play by the rules using the tools, including bug voting,
available to them.

Similarly, nobody, dev or user, /requested/ that people post
plasma-desktop-appletsrc, and the posting by one user was simply chance.  Back
at that point, there wasn't much clue that posting it would have been helpful,
so I can see why the devs hadn't requested it then.  But by the time 4.7 came
out, fixing it for some but not for others, if it was so obvious that Aaron
could comment WTF about users not posting it, why wasn't it obvious enough for
a dev to actually request?  

And if it wasn't obvious enough to request, or even if it was, since nobody did
so, the noise about users being too dumb to somehow read a devs mind and figure
it out was... shall we say, more heat than light?

And with both triggers for the problem existing until 4.7, it had barely been
established and confirmed that the problem continued to exist on 4.7, when it's
fixed, but the dev fixing it complains about lack of information that probably
didn't apply to most since they would have had the earlier fixed problem, and
that the folks still with the problem had no clue they needed to provide, since
they still thought it was the same problem as before.

So yeah, I'm glad it's fixed, but devs complaining about missing information,
when it wasn't clear even to devs at first even where the problem was, and all
requested information was provided several times over... then that same dev
complaining about the tone on the bug...

What are the users /supposed/ to do, read minds, to know what information might
be useful?  Unfortunately, it seems even the devs didn't know what files or
additional information would have been helpful in tracking this down, until
after the fact, so users would have to be psychic in TWO ways, reading the devs
mind before the devs even thought the thoughts themselves!

IMO, said dev needs to examine his own comments for more heat than light.

(This said as a regular on a couple kde lists, who recently found myself
apologized for a post I made in a similarly inappropriate tone, because I found
myself tired of asking for missing information... that the rather ordinary user
really couldn't have known they needed to provide in the first place.  So yes,
unfortunately it happens, and I'm no saint myself in that regard.  We can all
do with a bit of "introspection" in that regard from time to time.)

It helps to remember that fixing the bug is the goal of both the user and the
dev -- we're all on the same side against the bugs, and killing (as in, driving
away) someone fighting on our side, particularly when they've taken time out of
their own schedule to report the bug and/or find it and add their own info as
they can, doesn't tend to help! =;^)

-- 
Configure bugmail: https://bugs.kde.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
You are watching all bug changes.
[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]