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List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Re: Observations on the new KWord startup dialog
From:       "Aaron J. Seigo" <aseigo () olympusproject ! org>
Date:       2003-05-27 22:22:13
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On Tuesday 27 May 2003 03:19, Thomas Zander wrote:
> On Tuesday 27 May 2003 17:02, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > > You missed some features
> > > - the left and right as rest to resizing policy 'minimum' so the center
> > > takes all available space
> >
> > i don't want the center to take all available space. in fact, if
> > anything, the third panel should take up more space so as to provide room
> > for content. there is nothing special about the centre column..
>
> I disagree; the amount of different templates per 'category' can grow quite
> easily. You don't want it growing vertically when it can grow horizontally.
> Remember that a company can easily create 20 templates for their styles
> which have to be viewed correctly.

then we make the icons smaller .. no big deal....

> > > - The open button should be right aligned (its a bit too big now)
> >
> > that's sort of the point. it's in an out-of-the way place, so i wanted to
> > make sure it is noticeable.
>
> This just makes me think its positioned wrong; you are prepared to break
> standard UI rules to make it look different since (as you allready found)
> it is out of place...

what? the button is contextually related to the third panel and avoids 
confusion by keeping it near the locus of attention and away from the other 
buttons. this has NOTHING to do with breaking "standard UI rules".

> > > - you miss the location label (for recent files)
> >
> > that would appear in the third pane in the description area.
>
> A URL tends to get quite long, and spanning it over two lines surely does
> not increas readablility.

and have a label that is empty 99% of the time taking up space in a special 
place of the dialog is not an option. all the detailed information should be 
in the final pane, assuming we even need to show the entire URL. it could 
just as well be shown like:
 
host: <hostname>
protocol: <protocol>
path: <path>

with the filename right below the icon (where the A4 is in the mockup). if the 
file is a local file, the host and protocol lines can be skipped.

> > > - you miss the intro text
> >
> > third pane.
>
> Surely not; the intro is about the whole dialog. Its an intro on what you
> are doing in this dialog and should be a one liner that does not go away;
> that has no place in a context sensitive panel...

if this dialog requires a permenant intro text we're doing something horribly 
wrong. we should minimize the amount of noise in this dialog and a label 
across the top that will get read once at best and should never need to be 
read in the first place is rediculous.

> > i want them beside the words... this keep the relationship between icon
> > and text completely unambiguous,
>
> Since we have different background colors per row this is not any better
> above my proposal. Plus that the concept of icon above text is pretty
> omnipresent in every GUI.

every GUI? you mean like the listview in konquror? or the sidebar in 
konqueror? or the folder list in kmail? or in MacOS X? or in Outlook Express? 
or... shall i go on? this isn't a konqueror 2d icon view, this is a vertical 
listing...

> > saves vertical space (allowing larger icons
> > w/out a vertical scroll bar) and preserves the left-to-right nature of
> > this dialog. see the MacOS X finder for examples of this...
>
> But the horizontal space is always more expensive then the vertical space
> of a computer screen. So this does not make any sense.

last time i checked virtually every single monitor in the world is wider than 
it is tall. when you include the default position of the KDE panel, vertical 
space is indeed at a premium and horizontal space is much greater.

> Amazingly enough; whenever you see a screenshot of konqueror you see the
> icons view. The icons there are above the text. As people only make
> screenshots of things they think are beutiful (for the purpose of demo-ing
> anyway :) I think you are wrong in your assumptions.

screenshots of konqueror in its default configuration are irrelevant to topic 
at hand. the use cases are different, the default config different, etc, etc, 
etc...

> It is about what the button is for relative to the placement of the button.
> If I make an outline of the dialog (only the panel outlines and lines plus
> the buttons, and absolutely no text) people will not expect the usage you
> want this button to have.

really? you mean that people going left -> right and ending up in the third 
panel where it describes the document choice they've selected with a great 
big "start with this" button won't figure it out? the button is CLOSEST to 
the locus of attention when evaluating the selection. the buttons on the 
bottom of the dialog are clearly different actions.

it's ok, i'll do some user testing this week... then we won't need to banter 
back and forth about it ...

> Any texts, colors or other goodies are no substitute for correct placement
> of buttons.

i didn't say anything about colors or goodies, and i think this is a valid 
placement of that button.

erg... anyone besides Thomas care to comment?

- -- 
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE: The 'K' is for 'kick ass'
http://www.kde.org       http://promo.kde.org/3.1/feature_guide.php
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