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List:       koffice
Subject:    Re: Problem: Close & Exit
From:       Achim Bohnet <ach () mpe ! mpg ! de>
Date:       1999-09-08 10:59:10
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>>>Peter Penz wrote:
 > Currently I try to collect comments about the new KDE Standards web site
 > (prerelease). One problem has to be solved: the behaviour of Close &
 > Exit. Because this problem has very much to do with KOffice, I mail it
 > to this list :-)
 > 
 > I know it sounds easy:
 > - Exit quits the application and closes all windows.
 > - Close closes the window.
 > 
 > In the KDE Standards was said, that every window must have an Exit.
 > 
 > Please read following examples carefully, to understand where the
 > problem is ;-)

I hope I got it :)  I'm not a kde developer but I often suffer to 
explain users this problem with various applications.

In an ideal world all apps should be either 1 or 3 (as defined by examples
below).  The problem you describe is IMHO not a problem of the Kde GUI standard
but a problem of 'deficient' applications (no offense indended).

In an ideal world applications should always be of type 1 or 3 (from
the point what the user sees in the GUI).  And type 1 or type 3 are only
used in the case

	a) Multi doc makes no sense -> type 1.  _AND_ The invocation of
	  a second instance should either pop to front the already
	  running app or present to Dialog with a 'Exit' buttton that
	  tell the user that already another app is running

	b) Mutli doc makes sense -> type 3.  _AND_ a second invoation
	   should (by default) contact the already running app to
	   open another doc view  (like netscape --remote or nc
           (Nedit Client).

This mean there can be only be one app of type 1 (no close, only exit)
or one app of type 3 (close and exit).

Note on type 3 apps.  I don't care, unless it's a waste of resources if
type 3 apps are implemented as one or multi process application.  It's
only important when several processes are envolved that they speak&cooporate
with each other so each process knows about the others and can present the
and close/exit Menu entries are defined for a one process mulit doc app.

Back to lurking mode.

Achim

 > Example 1:
 > ----------
 > Let's assume we start a small editor, which has an Exit in the file-menu
 > (like it's said in the standards). Let's say this editor doesn't support
 > a Multiple Document Interface, so you can only edit one document (no
 > 'New Window' etc.).
 > 
 > Fine. But now I want to edit another document. I don't want to loose the
 > old document, so I start another instance of the application (e. g. by
 > klicking in kpanel) => now I've two editors on my screen, both of them
 > have an Exit in their file-menu.
 > 
 > => If I click on Exit of one editor, it closes the window and quits the
 > instance of the application - the other application is still there.
 > 
 > Ok, here's no real problem. But still there's a bad feeling what an
 > "application" is for a user...
 > 
 > Example 2:
 > ==========
 > Now we have a better editor, which has a 'New Window', a 'Close' and an
 > 'Exit' in the file-menu! We start the editor, select 'New Window' and
 > now we have two equal looking windows on the screen.
 > 
 > Close closes the actual window, Exit closes both windows and quits the
 > application (we have 2 windows, but only one instance of the application
 > behind...).
 > 
 > Here's the first problem: from the users point of view in example 1 Exit
 > closes only one window, in example 2 Exit closes both!!! An average user
 > isn't interested and doesn't know, if there are two ore one instances of
 > applications behind the window. 
 > 
 > Example 3:
 > ==========
 > And here's the main-problem: now we start an instance of the 'better
 > editor' and DON'T (!) select 'New Window', but start another instance
 > from the editor with kpanel => now we have 2 windows with Close & Exit,
 > but now the Exit closes only one window!!!!!!
 > 
 > --------------------
 > 
 > Hope you see know what I mean. Even developers have problems with Close
 > & Exit. Try to start 10 different KDE-applications and look into the
 > file-menu: sometimes theres only a Close, sometimes a Quit, sometimes
 > Close & Exit, only an Exit... and even worse: they act different!
 > 
 > If I'm honest: I never understood the necessity of Exit. Everybody (!)
 > understands what a Close does: it closes the window (it does the same as
 > pressing the X-Button in the upper right!). From the user-point of view
 > he doesn't care if theres also an application behind or not.
 > 
 > How many of you really need (!) an Exit? If I have 3 windows open for
 > KWord, it takes me 3 seconds to close them with the X-Button - no
 > relation to the 2 hours I spent writing three documents :-) It also took
 > me around 5 seconds to open these three windows, so please don't tell me
 > you NEED an Exit because of the time...
 > 
 > So my question to you is:
 > SHOULD WE THROW OUT THE EXIT AND ONLY HAVE A CLOSE?
 > 
 > I know from earlier discussions, that some will protest against that -
 > please don't start flaming, it's only a point of discussion to solve the
 > problem. If someone has a better solution: please mail it :-)
 > 
 > Peter
 > 
 > PS: To MAC-experienced users: how does the Mac solve this problem?



-- 
    To me vi is Zen.  To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is
    a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated.
    You discover truth everytime you use it.
					-- reddy@lion.austin.ibm.com

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