From koffice Wed Sep 08 10:59:10 1999 From: Achim Bohnet Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:59:10 +0000 To: koffice Subject: Re: Problem: Close & Exit X-MARC-Message: https://marc.info/?l=koffice&m=93678753502380 >>>Peter Penz wrote: > Currently I try to collect comments about the new KDE Standards web site > (prerelease). One problem has to be solved: the behaviour of Close & > Exit. Because this problem has very much to do with KOffice, I mail it > to this list :-) > > I know it sounds easy: > - Exit quits the application and closes all windows. > - Close closes the window. > > In the KDE Standards was said, that every window must have an Exit. > > Please read following examples carefully, to understand where the > problem is ;-) I hope I got it :) I'm not a kde developer but I often suffer to explain users this problem with various applications. In an ideal world all apps should be either 1 or 3 (as defined by examples below). The problem you describe is IMHO not a problem of the Kde GUI standard but a problem of 'deficient' applications (no offense indended). In an ideal world applications should always be of type 1 or 3 (from the point what the user sees in the GUI). And type 1 or type 3 are only used in the case a) Multi doc makes no sense -> type 1. _AND_ The invocation of a second instance should either pop to front the already running app or present to Dialog with a 'Exit' buttton that tell the user that already another app is running b) Mutli doc makes sense -> type 3. _AND_ a second invoation should (by default) contact the already running app to open another doc view (like netscape --remote or nc (Nedit Client). This mean there can be only be one app of type 1 (no close, only exit) or one app of type 3 (close and exit). Note on type 3 apps. I don't care, unless it's a waste of resources if type 3 apps are implemented as one or multi process application. It's only important when several processes are envolved that they speak&cooporate with each other so each process knows about the others and can present the and close/exit Menu entries are defined for a one process mulit doc app. Back to lurking mode. Achim > Example 1: > ---------- > Let's assume we start a small editor, which has an Exit in the file-menu > (like it's said in the standards). Let's say this editor doesn't support > a Multiple Document Interface, so you can only edit one document (no > 'New Window' etc.). > > Fine. But now I want to edit another document. I don't want to loose the > old document, so I start another instance of the application (e. g. by > klicking in kpanel) => now I've two editors on my screen, both of them > have an Exit in their file-menu. > > => If I click on Exit of one editor, it closes the window and quits the > instance of the application - the other application is still there. > > Ok, here's no real problem. But still there's a bad feeling what an > "application" is for a user... > > Example 2: > ========== > Now we have a better editor, which has a 'New Window', a 'Close' and an > 'Exit' in the file-menu! We start the editor, select 'New Window' and > now we have two equal looking windows on the screen. > > Close closes the actual window, Exit closes both windows and quits the > application (we have 2 windows, but only one instance of the application > behind...). > > Here's the first problem: from the users point of view in example 1 Exit > closes only one window, in example 2 Exit closes both!!! An average user > isn't interested and doesn't know, if there are two ore one instances of > applications behind the window. > > Example 3: > ========== > And here's the main-problem: now we start an instance of the 'better > editor' and DON'T (!) select 'New Window', but start another instance > from the editor with kpanel => now we have 2 windows with Close & Exit, > but now the Exit closes only one window!!!!!! > > -------------------- > > Hope you see know what I mean. Even developers have problems with Close > & Exit. Try to start 10 different KDE-applications and look into the > file-menu: sometimes theres only a Close, sometimes a Quit, sometimes > Close & Exit, only an Exit... and even worse: they act different! > > If I'm honest: I never understood the necessity of Exit. Everybody (!) > understands what a Close does: it closes the window (it does the same as > pressing the X-Button in the upper right!). From the user-point of view > he doesn't care if theres also an application behind or not. > > How many of you really need (!) an Exit? If I have 3 windows open for > KWord, it takes me 3 seconds to close them with the X-Button - no > relation to the 2 hours I spent writing three documents :-) It also took > me around 5 seconds to open these three windows, so please don't tell me > you NEED an Exit because of the time... > > So my question to you is: > SHOULD WE THROW OUT THE EXIT AND ONLY HAVE A CLOSE? > > I know from earlier discussions, that some will protest against that - > please don't start flaming, it's only a point of discussion to solve the > problem. If someone has a better solution: please mail it :-) > > Peter > > PS: To MAC-experienced users: how does the Mac solve this problem? -- To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it. -- reddy@lion.austin.ibm.com