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List:       kdepim-users
Subject:    Re: [kdepim-users] kmail's disappearing uitilities and menu items?
From:       Bill Anderson <bill () noreboots ! com>
Date:       2007-05-17 5:51:06
Message-ID: 4F380442-1B87-4454-BD06-307F8AC33330 () noreboots ! com
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On May 16, 2007, at 1:39 PM, Ingo Klöcker wrote:

> On Wednesday 16 May 2007 02:54, Bill Anderson wrote:
>> On May 14, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Anne Wilson wrote:
>>>>> did before?  And why is "folder holds a mailing list" _only_
>>>>> showing up as a
>>>>> menu item from that top "folder" selection but not when you
>>>>> right- click on
>>>>> the folder and not under properties?
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember when it did this but I do know I've wondered why
>>>> not, since that was where I'd expect it to be.
>>>
>>> You do realise, of course, that you can set a toolbar icon for
>>> this?  Settings
>>>
>>>> Configure Toolbars > Main Toolbar <kmail_part> > New Message to
>>>> List.  You
>>>
>>> can move it around on the toolbar, too, to suit yourself.
>>
>> But then you are still traveling to the top menu area. When I create
>> a new folder for a mailing list, I should be able to right click the
>> folder and select the mailing list options for that folder. Besides,
>> why should I have to make icon buttons for all the per-folder actions
>> I might need?
>
> One of the principles of usability is not to repeat seldomly used
> functionality everywhere. Only often used functionality is added to  
> the
> context menus to keep them relatively small. Obviously, the best
> solution would be configurable context menus so that power users could
> tweak them to their liking. Maybe sometime in the future this will
> happen.

That would be nice.

in the meantime how about making it an option in the "new folder"  
dialog? That is IME the most common time it is used.


>
>>> OTOH, I never use it.  Why?  Because under the main menu item
>>> 'Folder' there
>>> is, as you remark, 'Mailing List Management'.  All messages in the
>>> kde-pim
>>> folder are automatically replied to list, with manual change
>>> available if
>>> required.
>>
>> That is the item(s) I should see on right-click.
>
> Apparently you do not belong to the group of users the context menu  
> was
> simplified for. You seem to be a power user. All I can say is that
> you'll have to live with this until it's made configurable.

Sadly, depending on PoV, I don't. The syncronization bug that deletes  
email silently for me has caused me to abandon KMail until it is  
fixed. Im still here because I still quite like Kmail otherwise. And  
because I can still help from time to time.


> According to the people from OpenUsability (who do know perfectly well
> what they are talking about) that's not how it's done. The main menus
> contain _all_ functionality that's available while the context menus
> only contain important functionality.

And they can be wrong too. Not all functionality should be in a menu.  
Some functionality belongs in a preferences dialog.

>
>> Better yet, have the context menu and leave it at that. It is less
>> confusing to users to have the two mean two things. If you insist on
>> both, make them the same menu. That is the least confusing to new
>> users.
>
> Again, according to people in the know, an extremely large number of
> users never use context menus.

In an email client I've yet to see people not use them.


>> My wife is a Linux
>> user and has been for years, and she makes an excellent point, IMO.
>> She's no hacker or zealot, she is essentially a "normal" Linux
>> Desktop user, albeit a smart one.
>>
>> Why confuse the user with two options that conceptually should be the
>> same thing but are different, and not in a specific way?
>>
>> Consider this as well. Mac users are used to traveling al the way to
>> the top of the screen for their Menu items (I just got OSX and am
>> learning). Yet with Mail.app, ctrl-clicking the message still brings
>> up a context menu that is almost identical to the Message menu.
>
> If you are interested in usability please discuss this for example on
> kde-usability@kde.org. I'm not going to discuss anything about
> usability with you because I have finally understood (it took several
> years to accept this) that my opinion is (mostly) irrelevant when it
> comes to usability. Nowadays, I do strongly believe in the "You are  
> not
> your user." mantra and accept (often after a brief discussion) the
> suggestions of our usability experts.

Unfortunately, most "experts" have essentially locked themselves into  
their tower. Of particular problem IMO is the "this works for all  
applications" rule they seem to have developed.

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