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List:       kdepim-users
Subject:    Re: [kdepim-users] kmail's disappearing uitilities and menu items?
From:       "Roy J. Tellason" <rtellason () verizon ! net>
Date:       2007-05-16 22:00:15
Message-ID: 200705161800.15736.rtellason () verizon ! net
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On Wednesday 16 May 2007 15:39, Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> On Wednesday 16 May 2007 02:54, Bill Anderson wrote:
> > On May 14, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > >>> did before?  And why is "folder holds a mailing list" _only_
> > >>> showing up as a
> > >>> menu item from that top "folder" selection but not when you
> > >>> right- click on
> > >>> the folder and not under properties?
> > >>
> > >> I don't remember when it did this but I do know I've wondered why
> > >> not, since that was where I'd expect it to be.
> > >
> > > You do realise, of course, that you can set a toolbar icon for
> > > this?  Settings
> > >
> > >> Configure Toolbars > Main Toolbar <kmail_part> > New Message to
> > >> List.  You
> > >
> > > can move it around on the toolbar, too, to suit yourself.
> >
> > But then you are still traveling to the top menu area. When I create
> > a new folder for a mailing list, I should be able to right click the
> > folder and select the mailing list options for that folder. Besides,
> > why should I have to make icon buttons for all the per-folder actions
> > I might need?
>
> One of the principles of usability is not to repeat seldomly used
> functionality everywhere. Only often used functionality is added to the
> context menus to keep them relatively small. Obviously, the best
> solution would be configurable context menus so that power users could
> tweak them to their liking. Maybe sometime in the future this will
> happen.

Maybe leaving this in "properties" where it used to be would have been a good 
idea.  As stated,  the point when you want to fill this in is when creating a 
new folder for a mailing list,  which is also presumably when you'd want to 
set expiry options,  which have also been taken out of properties and put in 
the context menu -- how often would you change that?

> > > OTOH, I never use it.  Why?  Because under the main menu item
> > > 'Folder' there is, as you remark, 'Mailing List Management'.  All
> > > messages in the kde-pim folder are automatically replied to list, with
> > > manual change available if required.
> >
> > That is the item(s) I should see on right-click.
>
> Apparently you do not belong to the group of users the context menu was
> simplified for. You seem to be a power user. All I can say is that
> you'll have to live with this until it's made configurable.
>
> > > IMO it would be best if the main menu items were those that set
> > > defaults, such as the HTML setting, with right-click choices for
> > > individual folders.  That would seem a more logical grouping, to me.
> >
> > Right, and 'Folder contains mailing list' is a *per-folder* setting/
> > action/item.
> >
> > Just as when I want to create a filter on a message I can right click
> > the message and do so (which I miss in Mail.app). Let the "main"
> > folder menu have general settings for folders, and have the per-
> > folder settings on the context menu.  Incidentally, I should have
> > available all menu-like actions on the per-message context menu as
> > well.
>
> According to the people from OpenUsability (who do know perfectly well
> what they are talking about) that's not how it's done. The main menus
> contain _all_ functionality that's available while the context menus
> only contain important functionality.
>
> > Better yet, have the context menu and leave it at that. It is less
> > confusing to users to have the two mean two things. If you insist on
> > both, make them the same menu. That is the least confusing to new
> > users.
>
> Again, according to people in the know, an extremely large number of
> users never use context menus.
>
> > At least your suggestion wold give a decent explanation for new users as
> > to why they are different. But then, for general default folder settings,
> > put it in the main configuration for KMail, with the per-folder context
> > menu providing an ability to override general settings for more specific
> > control. 
> >
> > To quote my wife when I explained to her that there was the Folder
> > menu and the per-folder context menu, and that some thing are in one
> > and some in the other, "Well that's just stupid.".
>
> Yes, that's stupid. As I wrote above, all functionality should be in the
> main menu and important functionality should be repeated in the context
> menu. Yes, we are guilty of not having included all functionality in
> the main menu.
>
> > My wife is a Linux user and has been for years, and she makes an excellent
> > point, IMO.  She's no hacker or zealot, she is essentially a "normal"
> > Linux Desktop user, albeit a smart one.
> >
> > Why confuse the user with two options that conceptually should be the
> > same thing but are different, and not in a specific way?
> >
> > Consider this as well. Mac users are used to traveling al the way to
> > the top of the screen for their Menu items (I just got OSX and am
> > learning). Yet with Mail.app, ctrl-clicking the message still brings
> > up a context menu that is almost identical to the Message menu.
>
> If you are interested in usability please discuss this for example on
> kde-usability@kde.org. I'm not going to discuss anything about
> usability with you because I have finally understood (it took several
> years to accept this) that my opinion is (mostly) irrelevant when it
> comes to usability. Nowadays, I do strongly believe in the "You are not
> your user." mantra and accept (often after a brief discussion) the
> suggestions of our usability experts.

So that's where those folks that are responsible for these changes might be 
found?  Hmm....

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin
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