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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Kicker bar maiming
From:       Sander Devrieze <s.devrieze () pandora ! be>
Date:       2003-12-21 10:13:44
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Op zondag 21 december 2003 10:17, schreef Frans Englich:
> On Sunday 21 December 2003 07:57, Sander Devrieze wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > The beneath arguments are _not mine_; it are arguments that I've already
> > heard and which have some clue _IMO_.
>
> Then they're basically yours. Since it is you who will stand up for them,
> argue for them and find that they have some clue ;-)

Actually, it where arguments that I heard before from other people. So the 
roots of the arguments are from them (/me hopes there are no patents on these 
roots :D)

> <snip>
>
> > > You're missing the big picture - I'm sorry to come with sad news but
> > > you are suffering from the @kde.org syndrome.
> >
> > The @kde.org syndrome? Is that infectious? :D
>
> As many other deceases this is highly individual. As a decease it is quite
> fascinating, it emerges from too frequent KDE hacking and using,

Only the last applies to me...

> and its
> effect is ten-fold multiplied by hanging out in #kde-devel,

...and I've never been there...So, am I sick general practitioner? :)

<snip>

> > > Or do you know how many who use kandy?
> > > Believe it or not, from KDE's total userbase there is more people using
> > > all those (obscure :) apps than konsole. It is not a question about
> > > whether "a lot" or "many" use konsole/whatever - it must be compared to
> > > the total userbase. And if you do that, you will see that the
> > > power/advanced users are a fraction.
> >
> > A fraction that could have an option in the KPersonalizer step.
>
> Not following. Let me explain my reasoning once more:
>
> Those that want konsole is a fraction of the total userbase, so is those
> who wants kfouleggs there, etc. ad infinitum. So lets say we don't try to
> please some of those really small usergroups in the default kicker(as we
> currently do with the konsole entry) and instead move it out to
> kpersonalizer. What have happened then? It is exact the same situation - if
> you don't plan for special treating one small usergroup(ie. those who wants
> the konsole)

remark not mentioned before: also keep in mind that (FLOSS) developpers are a 
very important usergroup: if they leave and stop developping it will also 
hurt all other groups that use these FLOSS.

> you will have to have a step in KPersonalizer  which includes
> /all/ entries

read bug report: of course it will be easier.

> any small possible group wants(konsole, kfouleggs, etc.
> etc.).

kfouleggs not: I said that only because you gave it as example.

> This is just not sustainable. It is not a fraction of the userbase
> which goes through the configuration step - it is all who goes through it
> in order to please the minority.

See beneath (making optional step if it).

> This is IMHO how configuring should work: The default settings should be
> adapted to the majority or the lowest common denominator(as in "all use
> KMail and Konqueror"). Then it becomes clear that *alot* of
> behavior/features does not suit some users and they will have to configure
> and adapt it to their /specific/ needs. Then there's two options:
> Explicitly ask for configuration(kpersonalizer), that means having every
> user going through a tiresome task just because some minorities want
> special behavior; or simply let the minorities identify their special needs
> and configure it
> afterwards(right click, add/remove on kicker).
> Also, having an extra step in kperzonalizer is not optional. Tell me one
> configuration option which is not optional.

The things that can't hurt people in daily use if it's there like e.g. menu 
transparency, clock applet,...

>The user will still have to
> parse the form and make a decision. This is what making an interface
> simple, fast to interpret and use: hiding unnecessary information and
> lowering the amounts of decisions necessary to take.
> Besides, how on earth can the user know what it wants in the kicker when
> (s)he haven't even seen it yet?

Have you read my bug report? :s (see preview)

> In short, removing the proposed kicker entries, and skipping a
> kpersonalizer step will makes things easier to the majority while some
> minorities will have to right click the kicker. All in all, it's a win.
> (And we power users shouldn't complain - we're afterall the group which
> will have easiest for configuring KDE)

First read my bug report please.

<snip>

> > I think the power users (and also other users) likes it much more if they
> > can configure all things in a few steps in one time (first time KDE
> > starts) in place of configuring smal things in different times after they
> > find the courage to change these things that they already bothers them
> > for several weeks. (same for other users)
>
> But this bypasses the core issue: The usage of KDE can generally be made
> easier if config steps were reduced.

And that config steps to config things that could hinder much people are 
bundled and done in the beginning.

> The only one suffering is those with
> special needs(and making configuring easier for them, such as a
> kpersonalizer step hurts everyone else and that's why it's not
> sustainable). I refer to my paragraph above which discusses this in more
> detail.

This step should be made that it don't hurts people. It's also possible to add 
this step on the end and make it _optional_...maybe that's better?

> > > And bash is definately not user friendly.
> >
> > I was comparing it with the CLI of MS DOS ;-)
>
> And when I wrote that I was very close to add "(perhaps when compared to
> DOS but that's OT)".
> Just because it is /more/ /friendly/ than DOS/whatever does not make
> it /friendly/. If we skip comparing different languages, focuses on the
> relativeness and instead compares to the user we realize that (s)he still
> have to /learn/ a scripting language in order to use it.
> In other words, I don't care if it is tens times more useful than DOS it is
> *still* *useless* for the ordinary user.

The clue is that it was useful (and is) for me when I started using KDE while 
DOS wasn't. Ok, this is already a time ago, but I think this is also valid 
for a lot of people that are now migrating to KDE.

<snip>
> > See above: IMO the patch may be commited *if* there's something in
> > KPersonalizer like described in my whish report.
>
> You will have to explain again in what way a kpersonalizer step would make
> things easier, taking the whole usergroup into account.

I think this is ok:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67718

Otherwise you can add comments of course :)

- -- 
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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