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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Proposal: Replacing Toolbar Icons in KOffice
From:       Antonio Larrosa =?iso-8859-1?q?Jim=E9nez?= <larrosa () kde ! org>
Date:       2003-12-06 15:45:40
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I'm glad someone added an alias from the wrong larossa@kde.org to my 
correct address :)

El Thursday 04 December 2003 03:35, James Richard Tyrer escribió:
> David Faure wrote:
> > On Wednesday 03 December 2003 10:57, you wrote:
> >>>That's the case by default (and has been for the last 6 months or so)
> >>
> >>My point is that it shouldn't be by default.  The application should
> >> use CrystalSVG icons only if the user has chosen that icon theme
>
> This is not clear.  Sorry about that.  Yes, CrystalSVG is the default
> configuration, but if you change that then it should change -- it
> shouldn't be the default anywhere else. There shouldn't be anything
> about KDE that prevents you from using an icon theme other than
> CrystalSVG.
>

There isn't.

> > We're about to release 3.2 very shortly, this decision was taken a
> > year ago, this is REALLY not the moment to come back on it. Do you
> > realize what a mess it would be, to move everything around now, and
> > break everything?
>
> Since KDE works with both CrystalSVG and (if you install them)
> KDEClassic, there isn't really an issue with KDE.  It *is* an issue with
> applications such as KOffice.

Why? I've just read part of the discussion, so please, tell me what's the 
issue in case I don't address it correctly below.

>
> > I'm not defending the decision itself - I wasn't involved in taking
> > that decision - I'm defending the fact that NOW is way too late to
> > change anything.
>
> But, I don't think that I am talking about changing anything in KDE.  At
> least that was not my original intention.  I will have to read some code
> and get back to you on this.
>
> >>Then it would appear that the guidelines which have been promulgated
> >> about this are WRONG:
> >>
> >>	http://developer.kde.org/~larrosa/iconthemes.html
> >
> > The guidelines are correct, they were written by the one who knows
> > most about this stuff :)
> >
> >>IIUC, they are quite clear that an application's default icons (the
> >> unthemed icons) should be installed as 'hicolor' and then it is also
> >> permissible to install additional themed icons under the correct icon
> >> theme directory.
> >>
> >>Clearly, if an icon in the user's selected theme is not available, it
> >> should first fall back to 'hicolor', and then the 'default.kde'.
> >>
> >>NOTE: in many cases 'hicolor' will be empty, but if there is an icon
> >> there it 'hicolor' must be the send choice for an icon theme after
> >> the user selected theme.

Really?
Suppose there's an icon theme, quite similar to crystalsvg called 
"crystalizedsvg", the icon theme author obviously inherits from crystalsvg 
so that he doesn't have to repeat most work since they're quite similar.
Now suppose a 3rd party application installs its application icon in the 
hicolor theme (as he MUST do), and decides to paint another icon following 
the crystal style, and install it on the crystalsvg icon theme so that 
most KDE users get an icon that match with the default desktop style.
Do you see the problem of your reasoning now? If you want hicolor to have 
preference over crystalsvg, then an user who is using crystalizedsvg will 
have the hicolor icon for that application when it could be using the 
crystalsvg icon which better follows its style.

> > Looks like the guidelines tried to make things work for apps out of
> > CVS too. Inside CVS, installing either as "cr" or "hi" was correct in
> > any case, IIRC. Cc'ing Antonio...

Was correct in the sense that the icons can be found. But of course, if the 
icons are found in the first icon theme where we look, the icon loader 
will work faster.

> What needs to be avoided is installing CrystalSVG icons as: "hi".  That
> is the first problem.  It isn't clear from the guidelines, but to me it
> appears that only unthemed icons should be installed as: "hi".

Of course.

> But, the first fallback MUST be to hicolor; otherwise an icon installed
> as: "hi" will never be used if there is an icons installed as: "cr".

Perhaps we could make it possible for icon themes who specifically ask to 
be inherited from an unthemed icon style  (that is, hicolor) to change the 
preference order. Anyway, that shouldn't be done always as you suggest.

> >>>3) crystalsvg is the default icon theme in KDE-3.2.
> >>
> >>I want to make this quite clear that I am not in any way objecting to
> >> the existence of the CrystalSVG icon theme.  What I am objecting to
> >> is being forced to use them.
>
> I have not had any problems using KDEClassic icons with KDE-3.1.4+
> except for the bug report (68625) which I filed -- and this is a bug
> that needs to be fixed [there is a program design error or perhaps it
> was just an accident].
>
> But, now it appears that various applications are going to start
> removing the unthemed icons.  Especially KOffice.  This is NOW not six
> months ago.  You need to realize that removing the unthemed icons is a
> much different issue than adding the CrystalSVG themed icons.
>

That may be a problem because I don't know if the gnome people already 
implemented the possibility to look for icons in the default icon theme of 
other desktops (that is, in the default.kde symlink, which currently 
points to crystalsvg). If they haven't, then gnome panel won't be able to 
find the koffice app icons. If they have already implemented it, then 
there's nothing wrong (except for other desktops of course).

Greetings,

--
Antonio Larrosa Jimenez
KDE developer - larrosa@kde.org
http://developer.kde.org/~larrosa/
Better read something in another language than a riddle in your own.
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