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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Proposal: Replacing Toolbar Icons in KOffice
From:       James Richard Tyrer <tyrerj () acm ! org>
Date:       2003-12-05 23:56:01
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Luciano Montanaro wrote:
> On Thursday 04 December 2003 10:08 pm, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> 
> 
>>>So go and fix it.
>>
>>I don't see how this classic response applies when the request is to NOT do
>>something.
> 
> 
> I'm not following you here.
> I think you are not expressing yourself clearly enough - you mix
> a number of problems together:
> 
Yes there are two instances of the problem which require different solutions.

> You call the "unthemed" style the KDEClassic, which is in fact an Icon theme 
> since 3.1. 

But, as long as apps are expected to be compatible with all versions of KDE 3.x, it needs 
to be installed (by apps) as 'hicolor' which is the original 'unthemed' icon set.

> This hides the real problem - namely, that some icons cannot be themed as they 
> should. And this is, in my opinion, the problem that should be addressed.
> 
In some cases, this is the problem.  With Kile for example.  I found that their private 
icons were not installed as themed and tried to explain it to one of the developers -- at 
least to the extent that I understand it.

OTOH, in some applications, such as KOffice, the private icons were installed as themed 
and the KDEClassic/HiColor icons are simply being removed.  That is the instance where all 
that is needed is to tell them not to do it -- there is nothing that I can go fix.
> 
>>>The only icons that are required to be shipped with kde are
>>>the default ones,
>>
>>Again, I am not talking about KDE, I am talking about separate
>>applications.  Except for the bug which I have filed a report on, this is
>>not a problem with KDE itself.  You just need to install the KDEArtWork
>>package.
>>
>>
>>>which are CrystalSVG. the 'hicolor' directory name has been
>>>chosen for some kind of backward compatibility, and this is the reason
>>>the former hicolor theme has been renamed KDE-Classic (two 's'es) and
>>>basically abandoned.
>>
>>That wasn't a very wise decision was it?  And I am talking about usability,
>>not just personal opinion.
>>
> 
> 
> I have never cared too much about the default theme - I tend to change it 
> quite often. However, they have some advantage, e.g. they come in larger 
> sizes than KDEClassic. 

To some extent that is a valid point although I only have 1024x768 so I never use larger 
than 32x32.

> They could have higher contrast, in my opinion, but 
> they are not so bad. 

That is the issue, the lack of tonal range.

> Maybe the artist could be receptive to your opinions.
> 
I have never talked directly to Everaldo, but others have been very unreceptive to the 
idea that the compressed tonal range is a problem.  If you fix the tonal range, some of 
them are MUCH too blue. :-)
> 
>>>This discussion is getting stale.
>>
>>Perhaps one of the reasons that it is getting stale is that various posters
>>do not understand or have not correctly stated, the issues.
>>
>>
>>>The solution is to integrate the missing
>>>icons.
>>
>>NO, the solution was to not remove them.
> 
> 
> The solution is to be sure that an icon theme can override any icon in an 
> application.
> 
Yes, KDE is written that way, but the private icons must be installed as themed for that 
to work.  If they are installed in: "pics" there is no way to theme them.
> 
>>>You may have better luck and better answers from people that
>>>originally made the icons on the kde-artwork list, or from
>>>kde-accessibility.
>>
>>No, this is first a matter of policy.  Having looked into it a bit further,
>>there appear to be two issues.
>>
>>1.	For applications which install their icons in: "$KDEDIR/share/icons/"
>>and "$KDEDIR/share/apps/<app-name>/icons/"  The issue here is simply of not
>>removing the unthemed icons.  The unthemed icons should be installed as:
>>"hi" and the CrystalSVG icons should be installed as: "cr".  This appears
>>to be simple.
>>
> 
> 
> The fact is that hicolor is meant to contain the "default" icon, whatever the 
> application developer think it is - and at this time, the default looks to be 
> CrystalSVG.  So the easiest solution would be for them to "donate" the 
> KDEClassic icons to the kdeartwork package.
> 
That is not the way developers are doing it.  They are installing CrystalSVG in: 
"crystalsvg" directories even if they don't install anything in: "hicolor".  I believe 
that this is the best way to do it -- if something other than KDEClassic icons are 
installed in the 'hicolor' directory, it is going to really screw things up.

<SNIP>

--
JRT

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