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List:       kde-promo
Subject:    Re: [kde-promo] KDE and PR
From:       Sebastian Sauer <mail () dipe ! org>
Date:       2008-08-10 18:47:37
Message-ID: 200808102047.38113.mail () dipe ! org
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Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> On Friday 08 August 2008, Sebastian Sauer wrote:
> > Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > > the Ozone window decoration is absolutely horrific compared to Oxygen
> > > (which Ozone is a fork of). the Oxygen team knew what they were doing,
> > > but unfortunately a couple of devs (who happen to also be on the Suse
> > > team) figured they knew better and the result is a visual Fail
> > > on-screen
> > 
> > http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152030 does not indicate anything
> > like this. Please let's respect maintainers decisions and seek for a
> > working compromise ( http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160627#c2 )
> > rather then abusing such a topic for suse-bashing. Thanks.
> 
> at first i thought: "that wast probably the least useful response
> possible"

well, there is a keyword in my reply: compromise

> unfortunately, we
> tend to treat artists (and most other non-coders) as second class citizens
> in KDE.

Do "we"? There where technical arguments (e.g. gradients are not the best 
choose for remote desktops and we can't rely on desktop-effects like Mac), 
there where user-arguments (need a stronger indicator for active/inactive 
windows and why can't I change the color like with every other deco out 
there?), there where artist arguments (coherent look), ...
Probably find a compromise rather then saying only coders/users/artists are 
right?

> the reason ozone made it 
> as the default for the OpenSuse live cd was due to their desktop coding
> team feeling they knew better than the artists.

First Suse has artists too and it's a bit to simple to turn this into a coder 
vs artist case. Second, personally I still don't agree with the result of the 
usuability-study done on Kickoff. But I can change it with one click and 
there are distributions out who even agree with my personal taste there and 
ship that per default. So, do we like to deny them to do that too?

Same with the "know better" argument. Only cause someone thing it's better 
doesn't make it better for everyone. I just need to look around setups from 
friends to see that exactly not even one of them is going with the defaults 
(where defaults are panel at the bottom, kickoff-menu, wallpaper, etc).

That OpenSuse choosed other defaults which look very similar to prev 
OpenSuse-releases (coherent like users expect it from them) and does provide 
a good KDE3=>KDE4 experience what makes quit sense taken into account that 
~70%+n of there users are KDE3-users, makes quit sense in my eyes.

> this is why fixing things like how we treat the work of non-coders is so
> important: it affects things as distant as user adoption or marketing.

Absolute. But I don't see how that's related to the distributors, the freedom 
to choose my own defaults and - probably most important - to the possibility 
to address bugreports like #152030 supported by some and rejected by others. 
To find here a working compromise sounds more logical to me then to turn this 
into a "coders vs artists" case.
 
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