[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] 

List:       kde-promo
Subject:    Re: [kde-promo] Negative feedback about KDE non-openmindedness in  german Heise-Forum
From:       Eva Brucherseifer <eva () kde ! org>
Date:       2002-02-20 16:23:05
[Download RAW message or body]

On Wednesday 20 February 2002 15:36, Karl-Heinz Zimmer wrote:
> On Wednesday 20 February 2002 14:49, Eva Brucherseifer wrote:
> ..
> 
> > it is not really clear who decides what in KDE. There are rumours
> > about some kde-private mailing list where some old gurus decide
> > things...
> 
> Sorry, Eva, but I do not believe in such rumours.

People who are on this kde-private list told me. Maybe some of the people of 
this kde-private list want to comment this? 

> 
> > strange only, that you don't get much infos from the gurus
> 
> Please, try to be more specific: What information did you ask for and
> who refused to informe you... ?

My critisism is not about the coding itself - the ones who do the work decide 
how to code. It is mainly about 
- how events are organized, how the money question is handled (thus KDE 
League) 
- how pure users are handled (if they are companies or not).
- how organisatorial things are handled (like cvs accounts for people who 
want to develop, where the webservers are, etc.)

On this list we several times discussed the KDE League and KDE e.V. topic - 
acutally we never got an answer. I also phoned Chris and asked hime directly, 
but I only got the information, that it will come soon (that was one year 
ago). I asked Ralf and Torsten what money is in KDE e.V., I asked what 
happens with the money, who decides on what to spend. There I heard the first 
time about kde-private...  
I asked for a budget for the last Linuxtag. A lot of people said "We need a 
professional booth", but how can one make a professional booth without even 
having a budget? Instead you beg for each detail. I read a lot of company 
names on the leages pages - what happens with the money?

Also I spend quite some time on getting a new place for the KDE servers since 
Uni Tübingen has to pay the internet connect and the server produce very high 
traffic. After having talked to Chris about this I had 2 companies who were 
willing to host the servers (Telia Sweden and Jippi)... there was some 
response in the beginning, but then there was no one who actually transfered 
the servers. And I didn't receive any answer _why_ they were not transfered, 
although I asked several times. 
Please remember that when you negotiate with a company you always use your 
own name and it's your reputation if the whole thing doesn't work out. I am 
very disappointed because of that and I will of course never "put my head" 
there again for such a KDE thing (as we say in german) .

> 
> My onw experiences are very different from yours - and you may believe
> me that I am _not_ one of the senior core developers: concerning KDE
> I am still a learner but the feeling I got here is that decisions are
> made on a very fair peer-to-peer basis: no inner circle secrets.  :-)
> 
> > and that since some time they are not the people anymore who really
> > do the work.
> 
> Being a bit involved in two KDE projects (KMail and KChart) I can tell
> you that, yes, the people making decisions there _are_ the people doing
> the work!

But are you also deciding about how to spend the money that was given because 
of your excelent work to the KDE League? Do you decide how promotion is made?

> 
> Even better: The decisions are made in an open way, critics are taken
> into account very seriously and things are changed quite often after
> having been discussed on the respective lists...
> 
> > Maybe I misjudge the situation, but that is the impression I get with
> > the information I have.
> 
> My impression (and my experiences) are very different fromy yours.
> 
> Perhaps your information sources are not reliable?  My 'source' are
> my own eyes: the mails I read and write. This sources tell my that
> concerning the way how and by whom KDE decisions are made are going
> very good.
> 
> For me one of the major reasons why to participate in KDE development
> (even if I am not one of the most contributing people) is the fine
> experience of being taken seriously: by people who disagree as well
> as by people who agree to what I do or say.

That is true for developers but unfortunately - and there I agree with the 
writer of the forum article - not between developer and user. And also not 
between developer and the people who "sell the stuff", the people who manage 
promotion and events.

> 
> > It's like organizing events - I don't even get a buget in order to
> > organize a professional presentation.
> 
> The KDE League issue is actively being discussed and I am sure things
> will be better once a consensus has been found...

Where is it discussed? Unfortunately I only read discussions with KDE League 
memebers... 

> 
> > Often I propose things and then comes some ok or not ok... without
> > real arguments.
> 
> For this please take two things into account:
> 
> a) All of us are human being making mistakes.
> b) If you are in a situation where you have a feeling of being treated
> in an unfair or inadaequate way, you (imho) _should_ complain with
> a loud voice.

Mmh, I should shout even louder? ;-)

> 
> ad (a): There will never be a project where _everything_ is making
> _everybody_ happy.
> 
> ad (b): Chances of making things clear are better if you mention your
> complaint/questions immediately and clearly.
> 
> The worst thing that can happen is: Say nothing but become frustrated.

Well, I think I am someone who says her opinion in a very direct way, but my 
experience is, that it doesn't help at all in this case. Somehow I get tired 
of asking and shouting, after all I prefer harmony ;-) I don't want to 
complain always.

> 
> If you are not satisfied by the way how things are going you (imho)
> should _insist_ in answers _why_ this was decided like that or _why_
> this was not made possible.
> 
> Insisting in receiving a reasonable answer sometimes /may/ look like
> being stubborn but in the end things are clear and both you and the
> 'others' have a better understanding of your respective positions.
> 
> _Not_ insisting in answers might lead to frustration and/or burn-out
> of your enthusiams.

Well, not getting answers might lead to frustration and burn-out as well :-((

> 
> > I am not sure how long I will continue this way.
> > 
> > (
> 
> Seems not to be unrealistic to think about ways how to prevent burn-out.
> 
> > Pretty bad, since I otherwise like the job.
> 
> If you don't like the people _and_ the way how they interact with you
> when kind of unpleasant decisions are made - then only loving the 'job'
> will not be enough in the long run.

Well, I like meeting the developers, I like the users. That is why organizing 
Linuxtag and other fairs is fun. And I think KDE is wonderful software and I 
want to tell the whole world about it. The developers deserve it because of 
the work they do. 
But trying to get decisions on money within KDE is horrible.

> 
> > Next topic: implementation of features.
> > Yes, people like to implement their little toys and refuse to think about
> > the whole. Otherwise koffice would have a lot more developers. And the
> > kicker would have had a remake. There are only very very few core
> > developers who care about the whole thing. New user ideas are not even
> > really discussed, esp. not, if you are not one of the holy core
> > developers (except maybe if you are Eric S Raymond, see koffice-devel
> > mailing list).
> 
> There is a good way how to _dramatically_ improve chances that 'new ideas'
> are seriously been taken into account:
> 
> Just start coding!

So I am only allowed to say anything if I am a coder? Well... I guess that 
was what the writer in the forum wanted to say ;-)

Also: I am already coding, i.e. the html export filter for kspread, the 
kvcard part, which I coded for the IX article and which I probably will check 
into kdenonbeta soon. Also I coded kibod, a GUI to remotely manage the ibod 
and thus an internet connection. But I cannot code 8 hours a day, since I 
have a job to do. Hopefully I'll get paid for open source development when I 
am finished here, but until then I cannot spend so much time. 

But that is not the point. Why do I need to code in order to be taken 
seriously? As a user I have a totally different views on things and IMHO this 
view is quite important to improve software. I am using KDE about 12 hours 
each day and find a lot of bugs und possible improvements. I regard it as a 
normal thing, to pass these ideas to the developers. Just like the ideas we 
collect at the fairs. Or should I instead tell the people on the fairs - 
sorry, but the developers don't think it is fun to implement this feature, 
you have to implement this yourself? 

Some of my time I spent on writing usability reports, i.e. on kpresenter, see 
koffice-devel. It's quite some work to test a whole app and also to try to 
find out what the problem might be. Actually for kpresenter I spent 1,5 weeks 
(during my work). And acutally I got nearly no response. Well, now I don't 
use kpresenter anymore, but only StarOffice - because it does what it should 
do, at least from a users perspective.

> 
> No need to present something perfect and ready-to-use, but having started
> a new (little or large) project and actually _having_ started coding at
> least a bit of it you have far better chances of attracting others than
> by just mentioning the best ideas!
> 
> Imagine how you felt some time ago as somebody asked for help in porting
> his application from Java to KDE: you obviously thought that this guy _has_
> made some work and therefor you did not hesitate but offered your help.

Yes, but I also offered help to people, who didn't present a complete project 
right away. Kde-edu wouldn't have taken off, if we wouldn't have offered help 
to anybody. But unfortunately not all KDE people did this. The keduca 
developer did something wrong when importing his project into CVS, coolo 
cancelled his cvs account and now he doesn't respond to emails anymore - 
great job.

Well, after having written about a lot of details, I'd like to summerize the 
whole thing into one question:

Does KDE want to conquer the user desktops or does it want to be a toy of 
developers?

I am voting for the first and that is also where I spend my time for, because 
I think KDE is the best desktop there ever was. So I can somehow live with 
the fact, that developers are difficult in accepting ideas from users. But I 
cannot accept how the organisatorial and "official KDE" stuff is done.

Cheers,
eva

PS: Karlheinz - I hope you know this is nothing personal. It's just the sum 
of a lot of little experiences I had until now and I am glad I can express 
the resulting feelings here from time to time. 
 
_______________________________________________
This message is from the kde-promo mailing list.

Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-promo to unsubscribe, set digest on or \
temporarily stop your subscription.


[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]