[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] 

List:       kde-look
Subject:    Re: Files and saving (Was: Modal dialogs (Was: A new paradigm))
From:       "Steven D'Aprano" <dippy () mikka ! net ! au>
Date:       2001-07-28 9:15:37
[Download RAW message or body]

Craig Oshima wrote:
> 
> Rolf Magnus writes:
> >
> > How does "Save As" revert to an old state by answering "no"?
> > You (or he) also seem to confuse "Save As" with "Save".
> 
> No, I'm clear about the difference between Save and Save As.  It's just
> non-exact phrasing on my part when I said "Save dialogs".  It should be
> clear that I was referring to "Save Changes?" dialogs,

It wasn't :-)

[snip]
> > Most of the time a user says yes, after selecting the directory and
> > entering the file name in the dialog. So how would he do this without
> > the dialog?
> 
> Cooper argues that Naming and Location should be disentangled from the
> activity of saving a document.  A new document should automatically be
> given a reasonable name (ideally from the content),

Oh my aching head! So *he's* the one responsable for Microsoft Word's
atrocious "auto name" misfeature! Honestly, if Word offers to save my
files as "Dear Bob.doc" one more time I'll scream. Until we have true
AI, I'd scratch this idea, at least for most applications.

Imagine trying to generate a reasonable name from content in a bitmap
editor...

> and saved
> frequently, ideally on every change.  When the user closes the document,
> an implicit save should be assumed.

Hmmm... my first instinct was to yell and scream "Nyet!" as loudly as
possible. But then I thought about it a little more.

Some time ago I began doing programming in Hypercard, a GUI scripting
language on the Macintosh. One of HC's features is that it autosaves
your files as you work. I very soon got used to this, and stopped
hitting Ctrl-S every few minutes. I must admit that in some ways I came
to appreciate the freedom of mind that comes with autosave and missed it
in other applications.

One thing I *didn't* miss though was Hypercard's insistance that every
file you worked on had to be saved to disk, even quick'n'dirty files
that I never intended as anything more than a temporary scratch pad. But
that's an implementation issue.

Unfortunately, HC's designers were unable/unwilling to include the
second half of the tool in their product: versioning and infinite undo.
This limited the usefulness of the product. Many times I would delete a
piece of code, then a few minutes later change my mind, but by then it
was well and truly autosaved. I rapidly learnt to make duplicate copies
of vast swathes of code, so that one would act as a backup if I decided
to revert to a former version.

But, in my experience, if HC had the ability to go back to any
time-stamped and/or named version, together with a more effective undo,
then it would have been magnificent working experience.
 
 
> "Save As" becomes a "Put the current document here" dialog.  The subtle
> change in perspective eliminates the way experienced users generally use
> Save As: work on File1, "Save As" File2, "Save As" File3, close (and
> don't save) to undo changes made to File3...I'm sure everyone on this
> list knows how to work this system and has done this before.

There is absolutely NO excuse for not having a Revert command in any
application that has a Save command.

In fact, my preference would be to see the following File commands:
Save; Save As; Save A Copy As; Revert To Saved

and possibly even a Rename This File command.

Always assuming that a fully-functional autosaving versioning system
isn't available :-)



-- 
Steven D'Aprano

[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]