[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] 

List:       kde-look
Subject:    Re: Background starting from the console
From:       "Andrew B. Arthur" <arthur99 () global2000 ! net>
Date:       2000-07-02 22:22:00
[Download RAW message or body]

Magnus Ihse wrote:
> 
> When running Windows, I often start Windows apps from command line,
> like:
> C:\>notepad autoexec.bat
> 
> which spawns off Notepad (or whatever app I started) in a separate
> window, and immediately gives me a new prompt.

I've never seen Windows do this. But then again, I rarely use Windows,
and almost never the terminal in Windows (except to run ping and edit --
they seem to control the terminal when they are running). 

Doing different things for console and graphical apps is confusing, to
say the least. Microsoft clearly did the wrong thing here. 

KDE isn't suppose to be Windows or pretend to be Windows. It is an
collection of programs, some support libraries and a Window Manager,
designed to make UNIX more friendly to the user.

> However, when I try the equivalent in KDE, I get something like:
> miman:~>kedit foobar.txt
> KCharset: Wrong Charset!!!

This is a bug. Please read the KDE FAQ about this, it is fixed in KDE 2.

> and no new prompt. If you know the technical details, this is
> obvious, because what I should have done was something like
> mimam:~>( kedit foobar.txt & )
> to start the program in the background and spawn a new shell for the
> output.

If you know what you are doing, then use the terminal. Most people who
don't know what they are doing stay away from the terminal. KDE's job
isn't to replace UNIX, if we wanted to do that, we could write a new OS
(any volunteers?).
 
> This is not just confusing and illogical to people not used to Unix,
> it is also annoying to those who are, and who try to integrate KDE
> and classical console Unix, such as me. :)

It works the way every other program works, to change it would be silly
and illogical. I mean what happens when you start mpg123 in the shell --
can you keep working without typing a &. The implied meaning of starting
a shell command without an & is that it will continue to block the
console on until it stops.

In short: It you are going to use the shell, use it the right way.

> After discussing with a friend the best way to solve this (like, is
> this a KDE problem, or a shell problem? etc), 

A user problem? <grin>

> we concluded that the
> best way to solve this would probably be to let a newly started KDE
> app fork to a new process which would run the real KDE application,
> and the original process would just exit directly.

That would break several scripts, and it's not the UNIX way, why change
something that has always worked?

> Since this behaviour is not optimal while developing programs, when
> you would like to see the debug messages on stdout, it should
> probably be possible to turn it off (and return to the current
> behaviour) with a global setting.
> 
> I'm not sure if this would be hard or trivial to implement, but
> that's not really the concern of this list. :) Instead I ask, what do
> you think about this idea from a usability perspective?

I think it is not a good idea. Many scripts and console commands depend
on an app started without a & at the end to stop until the app is quit. 

Still, I think you brought up a valid point, although I think it's about
20-30 years too late to be discussing it.
-- 
Andrew B. Arthur               | http://www.imaclinux.net/
arthur99@global2000.net        |  iMac Not Required (but Recommended)!!

[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]