[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] 

List:       kde-edu-devel
Subject:    Re: [kde-edu-devel] kdeedu/i18n/common use
From:       Matthias Messmer <bmlmessmer () web ! de>
Date:       2002-04-25 8:00:15
[Download RAW message or body]

On Wednesday 24 April 2002 23:12, Anne-Marie MAHFOUF wrote:
> Please read the following carefully.
> I don't know what to think. I feel he mixes internationalization with data.
>
> I don't feel like carrying on without asking kde-core whether the kdeedu
> module should go on or what.
> I invested a lot of time in this project and if it is to hear that it does
> not fit in KDE then I better stop now.
> I cannot imagine a kind of policy which would exclude all languages apps
> (which are the most asked for from users).
> I know we must unify stuff but was Rome built in 3 days??? Of course we
> will eventually come with a conjugation app for western languages but I
> don't think that we have enough developers to do that right now.
> I think that given 6 more months we'll reach a common look and feel and
> we'll share data, we'll unify progs. This just needs a bit of time. I know
> that all the developers do their best and I am really proud of what we
> achieved so far.
>
> I feel a bit low this evening, I don't know what to answer to Thomas, I
> don't know what to think.
> If someone could ask the core KDE team what they think about all that, I
> would be grateful.
>
> annma
>
> ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [kde-edu]: Re: kdeedu
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 21:43:03 +0200
> From: Thomas Diehl <thd@kde.org>
> To: kde-devel@kde.org
> Cc: Anne-Marie MAHFOUF <a-m.mahfouf@lineone.net>
>
> Am Mittwoch, 24. April 2002 20:16 schrieb Anne-Marie MAHFOUF:
> > > > On Wednesday 24 April 2002 14:03, Erik Kjær Pedersen wrote:
> > > > > The kdeedu module is getting really strange. There are some
> > > > > beautiful programs in htere like kstars, but training norwegian
> > > > > verbs and something in spanish that I don't understand?
> >
> > Isn't it education that to learn new languages?
>
> Of course. But please consider the perspective of international users while
> designing the program or when picking already designed ones.
>
> It makes sense to have a something like KVocTrain in an international
> distribution where you can put in every kind of vocabulary in every
> language. It makes sense to have KTuberling where you can put in sound
> files for every language. It makes sense to have KTouch where you can
> provide training material for every language. But I don't think it would
> make sense to confront foreign users (and translators) with anything they
> absolutely cannot use without a lot of 3rd-party material.
>
> Please be aware that I'm just talking about the "policy" here. I don't know
> if this actually is the case with the programs in question (did not have a
> chance to look at them yet). Anyway, this policy is not just used on edu
> programs. KDE core mostly tries to only include programs which hopefully
> meet the needs of somewhat bigger international target groups (yes, I know
> this is not an exact science).
> //kids are not a big international target group?
>
> This, of course, does not mean that there is no need for extremely
> specialized apps or things of regional interest. (On the contrary!) But if
> they cannot be i18n-ed properly they shouldn't be included with the
> international core distribution of KDE.
> //annma: what does he mean by i18n-ed properly?
>
> > KLettres: internationalised. Ok but it needs sounds in the different
> > languages. I have the sounds for the Dutch  (thanks to Geert, a Dutch
> > teacher) and French (thanks to myself) languages. Where could I find the
> > sounds for the other languages?
>
> You don't have to. They can be provided by translation teams just the way
> as in KTuberling. If they don't do it it's their own fault. The important
> thing is that it must be _possible_ to internationalize the program.
> //annma: he does not get it with data. An English set of words with a
> common //grammar rule cannot be translated into German, it will mean
> nothing. As in //KLettres "me" is a basic syllable in French but not in
> some other languages.
>
> > Policy: We are trying to define a policy.
> > Isn't it educative to learn spanish verbs? or Norvegian verbs?
>
> I guess I will have to look on the programs in questions before I can
> comment on that one. But I would maintain that they have to meet the
> above guidelines. _If_ they cannot be used with lots of additional training
> material or are only of regional interest they should not be in KDE.
> You cannot compare this to an editor which gets translated to 50
> languages and can be used worldwide by everybody in need of such
> a program.
>
> Regards,
>
> Thomas

I agree, that we should look over everything about the maximum use of i18n 
features. Some apps use external files with translatable data, whis isnt 
i18n-ed yet. I did it (with help from carsten) only a few weeks ago for 
KPercentage.

But the main point here is  (imo), that we have a language problem with 
language programs. Think of language lessons at school! Explain another 
language by language. One educational approach is only to use the language 
itself and some concrete objects, that means explain german in german or 
spanish in spanish. Say "Apfel" and point to an apple! And pupils are made to 
use only the new language to communicate. So it is a serious approach making 
the GUI of KVerbos  (e.g.) in spanish. And it can be used "worldwide by 
everybody" how wants to learn spanish seriously. One will decide to say, it 
is too difficult: a spanish interface for learning spanish! But it is 
educational reasonable (imo).

Greetings

Matthias

-- 
Matthias Messmer, Germany
_______________________________________________
kde-edu-devel mailing list
kde-edu-devel@mail.kde.org
http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-edu-devel
[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]