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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: apologies
From:       "Joshua J. Berry" <des () condordes ! net>
Date:       2008-06-12 20:38:46
Message-ID: 200806121339.01274.des () condordes ! net
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Please note: I'm not a KDE dev.  I lurk on some of the mailing lists, and file 
bugs when I can, but that's about it.  So I think I qualify as having a 
somewhat "outsider" perspective.

From where I sit, this whole discussion has gotten blown way out of hand, and 
should have ended a long time ago.  I have to admit I got kind of pissed-off 
just reading through it all.  But I'm going to try to set that aside and offer 
some hopefully-constructive suggestions so this doesn't happen again.

Apologies in advance if I fail, or if I come off too arrogant, as that's not 
my intention.  Please interpret this as just a reminder we're all supposed to 
be friends here.

Mark:

From your very first post to that thread, your comments came across (to me, 
and I think others) as inflammatory and rude.  Using emotionally-charged 
language such as "Give us back our desktops!" and "[Plasma devs are telling us 
to] take a long walk off a short pier" communicates nothing of value except 
that you're pissed off.  (Both of those quotes came from your first message.)

It doesn't explain, except in very general terms, what exactly you're pissed 
off about, and it *certainly* doesn't offer any constructive suggestions to 
fix your problem.  Anything useful you might have said just gets lost in the 
emotional noise.

I realize you may not have intended to come off that way, so in future you 
might try something like: "I would really like the ability to put file/folder 
icons on the desktop like in KDE 3.  FolderView just isn't cutting it for me, 
because (a) it doesn't cover the whole desktop, (b) it doesn't let you move 
your icons around, and (c) it doesn't let you drag/drop.  This is a 
showstopper for me -- I can't use KDE 4 without this feature.  Thanks."

This has two advantages: First, it avoids provoking emotional reactions that 
make people feel bad, and get in the way of listening to you and solving your 
problem.  Second, it clearly defines the problem and communicates exactly what 
you want.  BOTH are necessary, by the way -- it's not enough to do #2 and piss 
people off.

You have to make the devs WANT to help you, otherwise they won't.  Simple 
politeness ("please", "thank you" and such) works wonders.

Also, claiming that Aaron is "bullying" you is itself an attack -- there are 
much better, less-adversarial ways to indicate you have a problem with his 
tone, ways that might have even had the intended effect.  For example, "I can 
see you're frustrated right now, let's resume this later."  Or, if you really 
think it's warranted, "Hey, what you just said came across as 
rude/arrogant/whatever."  Note that you are not calling HIM a bully, or saying 
that HE is rude -- you're saying that WHAT HE SAID was rude.

There is almost never any reason to make it personal.  In fact, I've often  
found that doing so is usually counter-productive.

James:

All of the above goes for you, as well.  Whether or not it's deserved, you 
seem to have a reputation for making inflammatory statements, yourself.  

Also, if you make broad, sweeping generalizations in support of your argument 
("It would also help if developers were willing to admit that things don't 
work."), it becomes really hard for anyone to take you seriously, particularly 
when those generalizations are partially or completely wrong.  (I've almost 
never met a generalization that wasn't at least partially wrong.)

Aaron:

Were I in your shoes, I don't think I would have exercised nearly as much 
restraint as you did. =)  That said, IMO words like "libel" fall under the 
same emotionally-charged category as "bullying".

I know it's frustrating, but it doesn't seem to me that letting yourself get 
upset will solve anything.  I think sometimes it's better to just walk away, 
not respond, and let the other party stew/vent/be pissed off.



Anyway, it really pains me to see flame-wars like this.  One of the things 
that attracts me to KDE (aside from its kick-assitude :D) is the fact that we 
have such a big community in which people are able to communicate and solve 
problems in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect.

Please don't ruin that.

Thanks,
Josh


-- 
Joshua J. Berry

"I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere."
    -- /usr/games/fortune


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