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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: Fork of KDE4/Qt3?
From:       "Mark A. Taff" <marktaff () comcast ! net>
Date:       2008-06-10 4:09:45
Message-ID: 200806092109.45141.marktaff () comcast ! net
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On Monday 09 June 2008 20:06:19 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> anything is possible. show me the extra N full time developers, or figure
> out a way to make the schedule last 3 years instead of 2 without killing
> the project, or a way to port a half-craptastic qt4 version of kdesktop and
> still keep plasma, which is really the door to where the primary user
> interface is going (not must go, not should go, but *is* going whether we
> (kde) like it or not). go ahead, please, do.
>
> > Isn't it more likely, that since you think the whole desktop analogy is
> > broken, that you find writing a whole new system more interesting?
>
> no. i find writing a whole new system painful and annoying. hell, i have to
> deal with this thread don't i? ;)
>
> much easier would've been to just maintain kicker as i had for years and
> let someone else worry about kdesktop and let kde sink into the morrass as
> mobile, "web 2.0" (i hate that term), mac os x and even microsoft sailed on
> past us.
>
> much, much, much easier and more fun.
>
> perhaps i am a masochist, but its because i believe in doing what is right
> even if it isn't easy.


Umm.  I never said that plasma would be easy.  In fact, I suggested the exact 
opposite: That because it was challenging, that you might be more interested 
in doing it as opposed to the traditional desktop analogy.  And I never 
*told* you what you thought or felt.  I *suggested* you might be drawn to a 
challenge.  Did you notice the questions marks?

> > More
> > challenging?  That you find porting/reimplementing the traditional
> > desktop analogy a low priority?
>
> the fact that we've put as much effort into it as we have is your answer.
> it's been no small feat.
>
> had we been looking for the easy, fun way out it was not this route.
>
> thanks for completely discounting my intentions though. there is nothing
> quite so absolutley aggravating as someone else telling you what you are
> feeling or thinking. doubly so when they are wrong.
>
> > > (and i'd note that "working" is really, highly subjective)
> >
> > I agree it is subjective, but by this point, I would hope you will just
> > stip that many of us think that lack of basic features constitutes "not
> > working",
>
> "basic features". i never used your "basic features". many people don't.

I would bet that some insanely high percentage of users use the classic 
desktop, like almost everyone except for the plasma early adopters.

> yet i'm able to understand the need to fulfill your desire and have taken
> paths to make them happen.
>
> > in a general sense, and that it is more convenient to just say
> > "not working" rather than always having to objectively list every
> > problem/bug/missing feature when we want to refer to the state of the
> > desktop.
>
> no, you can say, "this doesn't work for me". you don't need to be
> pejorative in the process, nor do you need to make blanket statements that
> are clearly not blanket statements.

The fact that the consensus seems to be that KDE 4.0.x is not ready for 
production environments is what says it is "not working".  I'm sure there 
will be a great many improvements in KDE 4.1, and that many more people will 
switch to it.  It still seems likely to me though, that many, possibly most, 
won't find KDE 4.1 "working" yet either, unless distros do a fair bit of 
customizing.

>
> > > > The Plasma devs need to realize that the Plasma desktop is
> > > > problematic!
> > >
> > > what part of "you can have your traditional icon desktop" is hard to
> > > understand?
> >
> > You keep saying that Aaron, and we have repeatedly pointed out to you
> > that while that may be possible eventually, it isn't that way now, and
> > won't be that way until at least KDE 4.2 (or at some point in trunk).
>
> you obviously haven't read all the emails in this thread.
>
> > As of right now, I cannot, in fact, have a KDE4 desktop with all the
> > traditional features we expect.  If we could, we wouldn't even be having
> > this discussion!  Isn't that obvious?  We aren't making this up just to
> > irritate you.  We see this as a serious problem.
>
> yes, i understand you see this as a serious problem for you.
>
> here's the departure, however: you see it as a reason to bitch, moan,
> complain and pretend that you understand better.
>
> i just write code towards an end point that will satisfy everyone. i also
> happen to know what i'm talking about while i do it and, just as
> importantly, don't talk about things i have no idea about.
>
> i also don't try and tell you that your hoped for end (icons on your
> desktop) is one you shouldn't have. while people call me a tyrant and a
> dictator, i'm working my fucking ass off to get you what you say you need
> (not to mention juggling everything else i happen to do for this project)
>
> even more importantly, i don't go around writing polemics that piss off
> other people who are working to get me what i want.

And that's part of the problem Aaron.  You see us debating the merits or lack 
of merits of Plasma as being polemic.  For my money, no code in KDE rises to 
a 'religous, philosophical, or political position that is beyond reproach', 
and it is telling that you think it does.

> see the difference?
>
> but here's my failing: i haven't done it fast enough to please you.
> interesting you feel empowered to demand that.
>
> > > get past your emotional state and use your head. that should not be too
> > > much to expect from people on a development mailing list.
> >
> > I have been emphatic, but I wouldn't say I've been emotional.
>
> ok, maybe it's me but this sounded pretty emotional:
>
> " Now we have interface tyrants that want to force users to work the way
> *they* think is the Right Way(tm).  I've got news for you--I don't give a
> hoot how *you* think I should work.  I want the freedom to work in a manner
> that is effective for *me*."
>
> turn that around and read that aimed at you. pretend you've been doing what
> i have as stated above and then someone turns around and calls you a tyrant
> and a freedom stealer.
>
> > I'm not the one who talks about how others don't know things, or aren't
> > smart enough to understand, or are spiteful, or have arguments that are
> > 'wind-bags of foul air', or are being pissed off.
>
> well, you don't know what you're talking about. i can't change that. i'm
> sorry if it is embarrasing to have it pointed out in public, but you know
> what they say, "you can have people think you are a fool, or you can open
> your mouth and remove all doubt."

I haven't said anything to be embarrased about.

> i truly hope you're smart enough, but you haven't exactly shown that you
> are. i truly hope you're not spiteful, but your words surely don't give me
> much hope.
>
> and yeah, at this point i'm pissed off. you come at me talking about
> tyrants and robbing your freedom? i haven't earned that.

You have earned exactly that.  Calling your fellow developers, users, and 
contributors names, saying they are stupid, or incapable of understanding, or 
incompetent coders, or treating plasma as a gift from God beyond reproach, 
and generally insulting anyone who questions your position has earned you 
every bit of frustration you feel.

I used to be quite the fan of yours.  But lately all I see from you is vile 
hatred spewing forth at anyone with the temerity to question the merits of 
plasma.  I miss the nicer Aaron.

And here is what I find most telling Aaron: I haven't seen one person stand up 
and defend the way you treat your co-contributors.  The have certainly 
defended the merits of plasma, to their credit, but I don't think anyone here 
appreciates the way you call people names and such.

(Please do speak up everyone if you approve of Aaron telling KDE contributors 
they are stupid -- let's get a roll call vote on this one.)

--Mark
 
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