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List:       kde-devel
Subject:    Re: [Announce] KPDF2-0.3.0 released
From:       Krzysztof Lichota <krzysiek () lichota ! net>
Date:       2007-02-01 9:50:42
Message-ID: 45C1B7F2.1060405 () lichota ! net
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Aaron J. Seigo napisał(a):
>> You can run KDE with Compiz, but it is not as well integrated as kwin.
> 
> which is why we probably want to stick with kwin.

Exactly.

>> Composite extensions to kwin do not have publicity at all.
> 
> right, it's not time for that yet.
> 
>> I don't even know if they work. 
> 
> they do. i've used them and lubos has been blogging about it, even putting up 
> screen capture movies.

OK, but it is not the same as being part of mainstream. Compiz is there
for over half a year.

>> And Compiz is a great 
>> marketing tool to convince people to try Linux. I can see a lot of "why
>> should I use Windows, I have Compiz and it rocks" statements on forums.
> 
> reality check: these people saying that are linux users. i know there are 
> people wanting to convince us all that compiz is creating a huge user rush, 
> but it's not (unfortunately). it is useful, but it's not all that and a bag 
> of chips.
> 
> it's pretty important we keep our head about us when making decisions for kde 
> so we don't go chasing after rainbows and butterflies =)

It is creating "cool factor" which is really important for young people.

>> I have not used accessibility.
> 
> i was kde's first envoy to the fsg accessibility group some 4 years ago. 
> thankfully others came along to help out and take over who are more 
> interested and vested in the topic than i am. but it has given me a decent 
> vantage point  =)

Accessibility is most important for me as a way to automatically test
user interfaces. I think we lack this KDE.

>> I am talking from the perspective what is publicized (and marketing
>> matters). 
> 
> yes, it does. (god, why am *i* of all people on *this* side of the 
> conversation? ;) it also needs to happen at the right time and in the right 
> ways, as i'm sure you'll agree.

Yes. The whole point of my e-mail was to put more effort into KDE3
development, because KDE4 is long way to go. Unfortunately I see a lot
of "don't do your cool project for KDE3, because we are now working on
KDE4". And this cool stuff is going to KDE4, which nobody now uses
(apart from developers, and even there not for primary desktop).
Examples:
- Dolphin (development for KDE3 stopped)
- Amarok (1.4.5 is announced as last release in 1.4 series)
- Koffice

And it means that until everybody is using KDE4, nobody will see these
improvements. So nobody will use them for another year.

I realize this is developer's decision, but it is highly influenced by
other developers and "don't do your stuff for KDE3" attitude.

>> Compiz and a11y was just examples. I am talking about general climate -
>> seems like most recent advancements are in Gnome arena.
> 
> so let me say it again: that's simply not true. gnome has always tried to put 
> forward a "we're better than..." message; i've been watching this happen 
> since the corba and bonobo vs dcop and kparts days. it's never been true and 
> it isn't true.

I am not saying they are better :)
I am saying they keep delivering new stuff over the period when KDE
development seems "stalled".

>> For example 
>> Beagle (not talking about its quality, but anyways) or NetworkManager
>> (first developed for Gnome, then added frontend for KDE). They might not
>>  be strictly Gnome apps, but they are associated with it.
> 
> beagle: swahili for overrated. even gnome is moving to tracker, which is much 
> more like strigi than anything else. and the vandeoever, the strigi 
> architect, is the guy who is leading standardization in this area on fd.o; 

I agree on Beagle. But it is in use and creates "look, it indexes
webpages I visited!" cool factor. Strigi is not part of KDE3, so again
-> KDE4.

> it's also the project that nepomuk is working with most and nepomuk is a 
> unique feature set. again, we'll shout it from the roof tops when it is time.

Nepomuk: KDE4 :)
And I really think it will rock :)

> networkmanager: yes, it debuted first in gnome. kde has good support for it 
> now as well, however.
> 
> wait. ... is that ubuntu i smell?

Ubuntu is top distro on Distrowatch :)
But not only Ubuntu: Suse is using Gnome in SLED, Mandriva also shows
Gnome version for their latest improvements (Matisse), while search
engine for KDE (Kat) has been abandoned...

>> Yes, I agree. But there are also things which might be improved without
>> it, like infamous bug in disconnected IMAP which wipes e-mails
>> (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63353). IMHO such improvements are
>> more important than new technology in KDE4 (like Akonadi).
> 
> except that akonadi is a way to solve that bug, among others which are pretty 
> much intractable with the design in kde3. given that, what do you think now?

If this bug could not be solved in current KDE3 architecture, then I
think there would be something seriously wrong with KDE3 architecture.
And I don't think this is the case.
And promising to solve such bug in next "major" release seems a lot like
promises of proprietary apps vendors.

> here's the greatest irony of the open source fanbase: they love what we do but 
> they also seem to think we're borderline idiots =)

Just the opposite :) I think you are cool guys who want to work on new
and fun stuff in KDE4, instead of dealing with old, boring KDE3 ;)

	Krzysztof Lichota



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