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List:       kde-core-devel
Subject:    Re: Removing Noatun from cvs
From:       Charles Samuels <charles () kde ! org>
Date:       2001-08-26 1:21:50
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99% of the users' bug reports are nicer then the abuse I get from developers.

And what's even more odd is that the same developers that berated me on IRC 
are the ones that had nothing but negative comments to say.



[17:05:33] <gis> Njaard: now if just noatun's rest wouldn't suck ;)
[17:05:56] <Njaard> gis: what part of the rest of noatun sucks ?
[17:06:07] <gis> Njaard: the mimetype handling :)
[17:06:11] <gis> and the effects dialog :)
[17:06:14] <Njaard> how does that suck ?
[17:06:18] <Njaard> gis: well, fix that :)
[17:06:26] <gis> Njaard: I don't maintain that :)
[17:06:29] <gis> it's full of tabs :)
[17:06:32] <Njaard> gis: so stop complaining
[17:06:35] <Neil> 1) the mimetype handling is in KDE, not Noatun
[17:06:37] <qwertz3> gis:njaard want his big effects screen build in
[17:06:44] <gis> Njaard: you don't stop complaining either :)
[17:06:46] <Neil> 2) I think we discussed the effects already
[17:06:46] <Neil> :-)
[17:06:52] <gis> Neil: yes :)
[17:06:58] <Njaard> and you can write your own effects dialog plugin
[17:06:59] <gis> Neil: still it sucks :)
[17:07:07] <Neil> now, if you had at least chosen to complain about the eq UI
[17:07:10] <Neil> then you'd have an ally
[17:07:11] <Neil> :-)
[17:07:17] <Njaard> pity nothing is wrong with the eq ui
[17:07:18] <gis> Neil: no EQ here :)
[17:07:42] <Neil> gis: if you have noatun 1.2.0 it's there
[17:07:52] <Njaard> Neil wants to put a menu on the EQ dialog, not only would 
it make it harder to use, but it goes against the style guide :)
[17:07:53] <gis> Neil: not enabled at least
[17:07:55] <Neil> settings->equalizer
[17:08:28] gis takes a few minutes to start up noatun
[17:08:35] <Njaard> gis: well
[17:08:45] <Njaard> gis: my profiles show that all time is spent in XMLGUI 
and arts init :)
[17:08:56] <qwertz3> Njaard:the question is would the effects fill it full..? 
[17:08:57] <gis> Njaard: so fix that :)
[17:09:05] <Neil> and my experiments confirm that profile analysis
[17:09:07] <Njaard> gis: "I don't maintain that" :)
[17:09:20] <Njaard> gis: you're complaining, you fix it
[17:09:31] <gis> Njaard: I don't complain about XML-GUI :)
[17:09:39] <Njaard> gis: you're complaining about startup time, so fix it
[17:09:44] <Neil> gis: but you just did
[17:10:14] <gis> Njaard: do you have stats?
[17:10:38] <Njaard> gis: yes
[17:10:43] <Njaard> gis: the numbers in noatunapp are the times in ms :)
[17:10:45] <Njaard> some are outdated
[17:11:00] <gis> Njaard: that EQ thing
[17:11:04] <Njaard> the big ones that are not XMLUI or arts related are 
outdated :)
[17:11:11] <gis> why has it that weird button-texts?
[17:11:17] <Neil> gis: simple experiment you can do - turn off YH and 
Excellent, load MC instead.  should startup noticeably faster
[17:11:21] <Njaard> what weird button texts?
[17:11:23] <gis> why not "Save Settings..."
[17:11:42] <gis> instead of "Add default" or whatever the original english 
text is?
[17:11:56] <Njaard> Preset
[17:12:11] <Njaard> because I want to provide a nice way to switch and set 
profiles
[17:12:12] <Neil> maybe Save As...
[17:12:24] <Neil> or Save to save as the currently selected one
[17:12:28] <Neil> which is why I'd add a menu
[17:12:29] <Neil> heh
[17:12:40] <Njaard> the KDE style guide doesn't allow menus there
[17:12:41] <Njaard> I'm sorry
[17:12:42] <Njaard> :P
[17:12:52] <Neil> it does if you call an EQ Preset a document
[17:12:56] <Njaard> now not only can you not do it, you  can't suggest it
[17:13:02] <Neil> it does if you call an EQ Preset a document
[17:13:04] <Njaard> Neil: nope, still not :)
[17:13:17] <Njaard> 'fraid  not sir, read the doc :)
[17:13:23] <Neil> I've read the doc
[17:13:25] <Njaard> heh
[17:13:27] <Neil> you don't edit documents in a dialog
[17:13:28] <Njaard> apparently not :)
[17:13:34] <Neil> therefore it's not a dialog
[17:13:40] <Neil> therefore you can have a menu
[17:13:40] <Njaard> it's also not a document :)
[17:13:49] <Njaard> sorry
[17:13:59] <Njaard> only the toplevel main window may have a menu
[17:14:24] <Neil> but if it's editing a documen it *is* a toplevel window
[17:14:33] <Njaard> I can cite my own chapter for that, but instead, I'll let 
you cite the style guide :)
[17:14:33] <Neil> noatun doesn't have one toplevel window
[17:14:33] <Neil> it has several
[17:14:43] <Neil> thanks to it's zany modularity
[17:15:06] <Njaard> Neil: I prefer to stick to ease of use, not making it 
conform to your own interpretation of style guide
[17:15:12] <Njaard> erhm
[17:15:17] <Njaard> misinterpretation
[17:15:22] <Njaard> or maybe, redefinition
[17:16:08] <Neil> Njaard: so take your pick: do you intend for Noatun to 
follow the style guide or not?
[17:16:21] <Njaard> it does so far
[17:16:32] <Neil> if yes, then be consistent about it
[17:16:36] <Njaard> heh,
[17:16:38] <gis> Njaard: I don't think the styleguide suggests using 
splitters in dialogs :}
[17:16:39] <Njaard> maybe you should be :)
[17:16:41] <qwertz3> Neil:there are already effects around the 
plsybutton...volume scopes
[17:16:41] <Neil> fine
[17:16:50] <Njaard> gis: that's true, but I can't find a better way ot do it 
:)
[17:16:54] <Njaard> plus, I like splitters :)
[17:16:59] <Neil> you still haven't answered the question though, Njaard
[17:17:09] <Neil> do you intend for Noatun to follow the style guide?
[17:17:10] <gis> Njaard: that dialog is just broken :)
[17:17:14] <Njaard> yes
[17:17:19] <Njaard> gis: so fix it instead of complaining
[17:17:21] <Neil> saying "it does so far" says nothing about your plans
[17:17:37] <gis> Njaard: you're just too lazy to do anything with 
user-feedback
[17:17:39] <Njaard> Neil: however, if i realize it's significantly more 
usable otherwise, I may
[17:17:42] <gis> I won't fix your stuff
[17:17:42] Neil points gis to bugs.kde.org for wishlist requests, and 
#kde-users for whining
[17:18:00] <Njaard> hehe
[17:18:09] <gis> Neil: have you ever seen njaard handling bugreports?
[17:18:19] <Njaard> gis: yeah, a "close" a lot :)
[17:18:34] <Neil> gis: well, welcome to the club of those who are frustrated 
:-)
[17:18:42] <Neil> gis: yes, I'm on kde-multimedia
[17:18:43] <Njaard> qwertz3: oops :)
[17:19:08] <gis> Neil: maybe we should make kaboodle the new KDE Media Player 
:)
[17:19:32] <Neil> and make Noatun the KDE Music Player
[17:19:39] <Njaard> I urge all of you to write a media player with a hugely 
untested library like arts
[17:19:52] <Neil> so i don't get innundated with wishlists for playlist, 
effects, eq, etc.
[17:20:05] <Njaard> you seem to complain a lot
[17:20:12] <Neil> Njaard: that's completely irrelevant to the issues gis 
brings up - UI
[17:20:12] <Njaard> and I seem to actually write the equalizer
[17:20:14] <Njaard> it's very strange
[17:20:27] <Njaard> well
[17:20:34] <Njaard> as long as everyone does something, I guess it's alright
[17:20:41] <Njaard> there's coders, documenters, and complainers
[17:20:54] <Njaard> I mean, the users can't do all the complaining, right?
[17:21:00] frerich doesn't feel like going through all the "responsibility 
and behaviour supposed from the maintainer of the main KDE media player" story
[17:21:06] <Njaard> don't forget to mail to kde-complain@kde.org
[17:21:13] <gis> Njaard: and people who respond with "send a patch" to 
bugreports and wishlist items
[17:21:40] <Njaard> gis: I won't implement a feature I don't want myself
[17:21:45] <Njaard> hell
[17:21:49] <Njaard> it's neil that won't even accept patches
[17:22:08] <Njaard> when neil gets them, he won't even accept them, it's very 
strange
[17:22:11] <Neil> here we go again
[17:22:29] <Neil> Njaard refuses to maintain the plugins he owns, and then he 
tries to micromanage the plugins I maintain
[17:22:45] <Njaard> hehe
[17:23:01] <Neil> Njaard: So it's your position that a maintainer must accept 
and commit any patch he receives?
[17:23:07] <Njaard> you both are being so rediculous
[17:23:10] <Neil> then I'll whip up some patches right now
[17:23:41] <Neil> Njaard: don't worry about it
[17:23:41] <Njaard> here's gis complaining that I don't code all day, and 
implement features I don't want
[17:23:50] <Neil> just keep doing whatever you want
[17:24:04] <Neil> Njaard: you're the noatun maintainer.  If people don't like 
it they can call for Noatun to be removed
[17:24:12] <Neil> and then try to justify that request
[17:24:15] <Njaard> ok
[17:24:19] <gis> Njaard: asking for a non-broken dialog is actually a feature?
[17:24:19] Njaard suggests it to kde-core-devel
[17:27:18] <Neil> Considering Noatun has swallowed Kaiman and Squelch, I 
don't see how anyone could replace Noatun without forking Noatun
[17:27:18] frerich always knew that bugfixes are some kind of feature
[17:27:39] <qwertz3> well i think media players are diffrent..from the style 
guide..see winamp..still popular ..or quicktime..or even m$ mediaplayer
[17:27:56] <Neil> qwertz3: again, popularity is not correlated with quality
[17:29:04] <Neil> and if a music player is so irrelevant that usability can 
take a backseat, then remove it from the KDE packages completely
[17:30:33] <Neil> gis: if you're just bashing the whole player becuase of the 
eq and effects, then don't exaggerate
[17:30:39] <gis> hey hey
[17:30:40] <Neil> oh
[17:30:52] <gis> frerich: yes :)
[17:31:22] <gis> :P
[17:32:27] <Neil> back soon
[17:32:30] <Njaard> there
[17:32:36] <Njaard>  expect a new email on kde-core-devel soon
[17:32:59] <frerich> I stopped expecting new mails ages ago. It's just way 
too noisy. ;-)
[17:33:16] <kentz> gis, I've been trying to make some money

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