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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: bikeshedding by a list veteran
From:       janne.ojaniemi () nbl ! fi
Date:       2006-03-21 9:55:38
Message-ID: 12395.194.197.237.196.1142934938.squirrel () webmail ! nbl ! fi
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> On Saturday 18 March 2006 12:07, Janne Ojaniemi wrote:
>> But I'm not talking about "usability reports" (like the ones made by
>> openusability). Rather, I'm talking about discussions about "How could
>> we make this thing here easier to use?" And what I quite specificly
>> said is that those discussions have usually been happening OUTSIDE this
>> list (like in kde-artists), with the end-results being posted in some
>> mailinglist (not necessarily this one).
>
> Like said by Aaron earlier; those kind of discussions rarely (if ever)
> lead to a result that will end up to have any effect on code. Thats what
> we have seen in the past.  I understand it feels good to talk about an
> idea and have others join in; but realistically thats just for you and
> has in the past done nothing for KDE.

But I fail to see why some KDE-developers need to get their panties in a
bunch is some users are discussing some KDE-related things in some website
(for example). Like I already said to Aaron, such discussions provide the
users with an easy first step to get involved in KDE. When they are
discussing and brainstorming KDE, they are actually actively doing
something KDE-related, instead of merely using KDE. It would then be
easier to make them take the next step in to something that DOES provide
KDE with immediate results (bug-reports for example).

And, such discussions are what COMMUNITIES are made of. We make the users
feel like they are active part of a community. And that is a GOOD THING,
even though it might not provide KDE with immediate and tangible benefits.

Will we end up having "Official guidelines for KDE-related discussions"
that would include stuff like "every shortcoming of KDE that you mention
anywhere, needs to be accompanied by a bug-number that was submitted by
the complainer!" and "if you fail to follow these guidelines, you will be
denied the right to talk about KDE!".

In short: you can't start making demands what people can and can't say.
Sure, you can say what they could say ON THIS LIST, since this list is an
official tool of the project. But what if I started a web-forum, where
people could have "unofficial" KDE-related discussions, would I then
receive complaints from developers saying "Those discussions are wrong/bad
because KDE does not benefit from them"?.

> What this thread tried to say is simple; if you want to help KDE in the
> usability arena please avoid blurting out ideas and 'this thing is bad'
> kind of observations.

I thought that I already made it quite clear that I agree that this list
is a wrong place to do something like that. That said, if someone says
something like that in some web-forum for example (or bugs.kde.org, where
such comments should be pointed to, according to Aaron), I fail to see the
harm it does to KDE. And if such web-forums could be used to create a
detailed bug-reports (with explanation, rationale, screenshots etc. etc.)
that is then reported to bugs.kde.org, where is the harm in that? And
before you say "but that hasn't happened in the past!". Maybe it hasn't
happened, because there has been no such website?

> Instead try to learn about usability from books and
> online data. Then you can give a report or suggestion that is not vague
> and will be taken seriously.  Otherwise you just end up being one voice
> in the crowd which have a very very good change of being ignored.

You are just repeating what was already said. And you are repeating things
that I actually agree on! But I still do not see the harm in having users
discussing some KDE-related things somewhere in the net. True, they should
not discuss them here, on this list. But if there is some website where
bunch of people are discussing along the lines of "wouldn't it be cool if
we had something like this?", I really, really, REALLY fail to see the
harm in that. Is it "bad" because "it doesn't really help KDE"? If that is
so, are you saying that all KDE-related discussions that do not provide
tangible benefits for KDE are "bad"? If you think that, then you are
basically saying that people should not talk about KDE, period.
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