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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Fwd: [Bug 59940] New: Adoption of dotNET
From:       David Legg <david_legg () tiscali ! co ! uk>
Date:       2003-06-25 12:57:23
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I've avoided replying to this thread because I think it's a bit
pointless, but I have because I care about how KDE presents itself to
the outside world. (You can actually make KDE look how you like, you
know). 

On Tuesday 17 June 2003 14:42, Thiago Macieira wrote: 
> The dotNET and MKUltra combination provide a simple, slim, sleek and 
> responsive desktop experience. Keramic, on the other hand, is bulky, 
> bulgy, ugly, distractful and completely unresponsive not mention it's 
> awful displacements of widgets in application windows, like Konqueror.
> Keramic is the cause of KDE's present noteriety for it's ugly user 
> interface, which is totally false especially if the dotNET and MKUltra
> combination had been adopted as KDE's defualt. 

These are comments entirely based on opinions, and when it comes to
default settings in KDE I think we need to steer clear of individual
opinions. I don't use Keramik, and, personally, I don't like it (I just
can't use it!), but it is a theme that does a good job of promoting KDE
to the outside world and attracting people to it. I would say the types
of comments above just sound like a marketing campaign to get someone
else's theme as the default, if I was being cynical. That is something
we need to avoid.

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:02:27 +0200, Simon Edwards wrote: 
> Wait a minute, people have been complaining that KDE looks ugly for 
> years now, most of that time Keramic hadn't even been created yet. 
> Keramic was basically created to be a modern "graphically designed" 
> replacement for the traditional KDE look (KDE High Colour style). 

I agree with Simon here. The problem with previous versions of KDE, in
many peoples' eyes, was the flat, boring default theme. That was great
if you wanted that, but it didn't do a great job of inspiring enthusiasm
and interest in KDE, especially when it got reviewed. KDE was notorious
for having a boring, ugly and flat default theme. Now that has been
rectified some people are weighing in with comments of Keramik being
boring and ugly, and proposing that it be replaced. We can't have it all
ways. 

> Now, having looked at MKUltra and dotNet, I must honestly say that 
> MKUltra is disaster w.r.t. usability (controls are in the wrong 
> position, are too small and don't even look 'clickable') and dotNet 
> style also has usability problems but most of all, good old fashioned 
> KDE High Colour style is just a more refined 3D style. 

I do like MKUltra, and it's a great theme in that everything is very
simple, striking and clear visually, although it takes some getting used
to. However, I don't think it's right for the default theme for KDE as
it's a bit more of a 'specialist' taste, and most people will just be
confused by it, especially those new to KDE. I don't think the controls
are in the wrong place, but they are definitely in places that most
people wouldn't expect. If MKUltra can be, or is, included as part of
KDE then that's fine, but it shouldn't be the default theme. 

On the other hand, I don't know where on earth the suggestion for dotNet
came from and on what basis it was made. For a start it's called
dotNet(?), and it merely looks the same as the old default KDE High
Colour theme (which you can still use), amongst others, which was
replaced as the default KDE theme by Keramic because people complained
that the old theme was ugly and boring! Really, there are ten dozen
other themes exactly like dotNET and it shouldn't even be included with
KDE, never mind made the default theme. Alloy does a much better job,
and is much more popular on kde-look then dotNet. I'm switching between
them and using dotNet and the high colour theme as I write this, and the
high colour and Alloy themes do a much more refined and minimalistic 3D
job. I agree with Simon that the dotNet theme is way too
two-dimensional. The supposed performance advantages for dotNet are
overrated, as the KDE High Colour theme does just as good a job if not
better. If you want to use this then you are more than free to do so,
but the default theme - that's something different.

Keramik is by no means perfect. There is a bit of a lack of a '3D feel'
when clicking on widgets (lack of 3D movement), especially the buttons,
and sometimes it doesn't feel as if you've clicked on anything. The
widgets are something that do need to be changed or re-designed in
Keramic. The default colour scheme and the window decoration is perhaps
a bit too much on the eyes, which is something I have heard from users
at work, and I think the Keramic Blue theme is a good improvement in
that respect. I do like the new animated Keramik theme (animated scroll
bars) and will help promote KDE's image even more. After all, the Mac
has them. Liquid style menus would also be nice.

We should get behind Keramic and try and enhance and improve it. It is a
theme that does a great overall job of marketing KDE to people who
haven't seen KDE before, although it isn't necessarily the most usable
theme in the world on a day-to-day basis at the moment. With some work
and some incorporations such as those from the Keramic Blue and animated
themes, I think that will change. It's main job is to make KDE look cool
and attractive to the outside world. If you want to change it and use
something else, then that's great, but I don't think that some peoples'
idea of a default theme should be imposed on other people. The default
theme can't keep being changed because some people think they've found
something cooler and better on kde-look.

Is this actually being considered?

David 



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