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List: webkit-dev
Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] Feedback on Blink's text fragment directive proposal
From: David Bokan <bokan () chromium ! org>
Date: 2020-09-25 16:41:23
Message-ID: CACV-Tm+Q4DwvqU6BOo8MfrFif-oAFnFZJVnaOgt3L6E6k=u1rA () mail ! gmail ! com
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[Attachment #2 (multipart/alternative)]
[Sorry, meant to reply-all]
On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 1:25 AM Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Bokan <bokan@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> > Can you clarify what question you're looking to have answered? Are you
> > > asking for a new standards position in light of the replies below?
> > >
> >
> > There are two specific points:
> >
> > - As I understand it, HTML requires multi-vendor interest to merge
> > changes to specs. Is Apple's position sufficient to start that process? I'd
> > be happy to start turning the spec into PRs but I interpreted the earlier
> > position in this thread more as "not-opposed" rather than support (is that
> > a fair reading?)
> >
>
> Given we're concerned about compatibility and this affects how URL, which
> is a pretty fundamental part of the Web, is interpreted, it's fair to say
> we're not ready to endorse such a motion.
>
Ok, thanks for the feedback. Is the compatibility issue the only/main
sticking point? That is, if we can mitigate or quantify the compatibility
risk as sufficiently low would this change your position?
>
> - Would Apple accept contributions to WebKit implementing this feature?
> >
> > Google Search uses this on supporting UAs - user surveys have found this
> > improves the user experience. A recently published extension
> > <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/link-to-text-fragment/pbcodcjpfjdpcineamnnmbkkmkdpajjg?hl=en>
> > to generate links to text already has over 50,000 users. This is clearly
> > useful to users but would really be helped if we can make it interoperable
> > across browsers.
> >
>
> Given the number of internet users is roughly 3.4 billion, and Chrome
> seems to have ~1 billion users, 50,000 (0.005%?) seems like a rather small
> number of users. I'm not saying that there aren't any user interests and I
> disagree with the underlying use cases. However, the fact this may pose a
> compatibility issue and affect millions of users who are using (sometimes
> very) old browsers to browse the internet, that doesn't seem to suggest a
> good risk-reward tradeoff.
>
The absolute number is small but what I was getting at is that installing
an extension requires discovery, some tech-savvy, and motivation so I think
even that number shows there is demand for this functionality (admittedly
non-representative, but still). OTOH, the feature is in use on Google
Search and Bing is reaching a very significant fraction of the user
population through those channels.
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr"><div>[Sorry, meant to reply-all]</div><br><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 1:25 AM \
Ryosuke Niwa <<a href="mailto:rniwa@webkit.org">rniwa@webkit.org</a>> \
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px \
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
dir="ltr"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On \
Thu, Sep 24, 2020 at 8:19 AM David Bokan <<a href="mailto:bokan@chromium.org" \
target="_blank">bokan@chromium.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote \
class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Can you clarify what question you're looking to \
have answered? Are you asking for a new standards position in light of the replies \
below?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div> There are two specific \
points:</div><div><br></div><div> - As I understand it, HTML requires multi-vendor \
interest to merge changes to specs. Is Apple's position sufficient to start that \
process? I'd be happy to start turning the spec into PRs but I interpreted the \
earlier position in this thread more as "not-opposed" rather than support \
(is that a fair reading?)</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Given we're \
concerned about compatibility and this affects how URL, which is a pretty \
fundamental part of the Web, is interpreted, it's fair to say we're not \
ready to endorse such a \
motion.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ok, thanks for the \
feedback. Is the compatibility issue the only/main sticking point? That is, if we can \
mitigate or quantify the compatibility risk as sufficiently low would this change \
your position?<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid \
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div \
class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px \
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div \
dir="ltr"><div> - Would Apple accept contributions to WebKit implementing this \
feature?</div><div><br></div><div>Google Search uses this on supporting UAs - user \
surveys have found this improves the user experience. A recently published <a \
href="https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/link-to-text-fragment/pbcodcjpfjdpcineamnnmbkkmkdpajjg?hl=en" \
target="_blank">extension</a> to generate links to text already has over 50,000 \
users. This is clearly useful to users but would really be helped if we can make it \
interoperable across browsers.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Given the \
number of internet users is roughly 3.4 billion, and Chrome seems to have ~1 billion \
users, 50,000 (0.005%?) seems like a rather small number of users. I'm not saying \
that there aren't any user interests and I disagree with the underlying use \
cases. However, the fact this may pose a compatibility issue and affect millions of \
users who are using (sometimes very) old browsers to browse the internet, that \
doesn't seem to suggest a good risk-reward \
tradeoff.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The absolute number is \
small but what I was getting at is that installing an extension requires discovery, \
some tech-savvy, and motivation so I think even that number shows there is demand for \
this functionality (admittedly non-representative, but still). OTOH, the feature is \
in use on Google Search and Bing is reaching a very significant fraction of the user \
population through those channels.</div></div></div>
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