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List:       qubes-devel
Subject:    [qubes-devel] Re: GitLab
From:       Hack <mistermyster () outlook ! com>
Date:       2017-05-13 20:00:06
Message-ID: of7ok2$fk$1 () blaine ! gmane ! org
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On 05/13/2017 09:40 PM, Andrew David Wong wrote:
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> On 2017-05-13 12:31, Hack wrote:
> > On 05/09/2017 09:13 PM, Ivan Mitev wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 05/09/2017 09:46 PM, Hack wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > 
> > > > Why do you use GitHub instead of GitLab?
> > > 
> > > Most likely because the devs historically chose github and it works well
> > > for the project's needs ?
> > > 
> > Useless answer, as it does not give any explanation (see below ↓)…
> > 
> > GitLab works well, there is even a Qubes OS repository added, 2 years
> > ago, by Wojtek Porczyk, but it is not used. Why?
> > 
> > > If your question is instead related to the trust/security/... (or lack
> > > thereof) of github vs. gitlab, github isn't a trusted infrastructure [1]
> > > so it's not a concern.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps,
> > > 
> > > ivan
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [1]
> > > https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/user-faq/#what-does-it-mean-to-distrust-the-infrastructure
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > From your link:
> > "We believe that many attempts to make the infrastructure appear
> > trustworthy actually provide only the illusion of security and are
> > ultimately a disservice to real users."
> > 
> > With all due respect, I find this "philosophy" so stupid…
> > 
> > From what I have studied, open source software are more secure than
> > closed source software. And there is plenty of studies on internet that
> > say the same thing… So GitLab is better…
> > 
> > Now if we take a concrete example:
> > I have a wife, children, and I have the choice to live in a quite
> > suburb in Glendale, or to live in the worst place in Detroit.
> > 
> > I know that I can be in danger in Glendale, but statistically, I know
> > that Glendale should be better for my family.
> > 
> > So what? Should I go to Detroit because I can be potentially in danger
> > too in Glendale? And because I would be less prudent at Glendale, I have
> > to go to Detroit to protect my family and myself, in a better way? Well,
> > as I am not dumb, I will choose Glendale rather than Detroit…
> > 
> > The same thing apply with software: Gnu/Linux is a better choice than
> > Windows.
> > 
> > So I use Gnu/Linux, rather than Windows (and GitLab rather than GitHub)…
> > But if I follow your line of reasoning, I should choose Windows? Because
> > it will "disservice to real users", as I will feel being in more secure
> > area… It makes no sense…
> > 
> 
> No, that doesn't follow. This is about the infrastructure, not the
> endpoints.
> 

But why that doesn't follow? It is very subjective… Nothing prevents it, 
mostly when the infrastructure hosts the endpoints…

Sorry, but I do not understand your logic.

> > More security is better… not less…
> > 
> 
> We agree, but we disagree about what constitutes "more security." We
> believe that what many people regard as "more security" is actually the
> illusion of security, and we believe that having more of the illusion of
> security is worse than having less of it.
> 

It is a dialogue of the deaf…

> > And finally, it is sad to use GitHub, because:
> > 1. even if you cannot trust any infrastructure, yet, you can prefer
> > a better one…
> > 2. you prone paranoia, but do wired choices (including your GitHub
> > choice)…
> > 3. your "choice", to use GitHub, does not help open source…
> > 4. your "philosophy" sucks, because it is hypocritical (open source
> > is better, and more secure, but only when it comes from us, but wait, do
> > not trust us too much… and trust GitHub (closed source), but not too
> > much…; blah blah blah…);
> > 5. it is egotistical to use GitHub instead of GitLab, "no
> > solidarity", free for all…
> > 
> 
> - --
> Andrew David Wong (Axon)
> Community Manager, Qubes OS
> https://www.qubes-os.org
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I think it is a useless talk, and I do not want to troll.

Anyway, thank you for your attention.

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