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List: meego-dev
Subject: Re: [MeeGo-dev] MeeGo Reconstructed - a plan of action and
From: Jeremiah Foster <jeremiah.foster () pelagicore ! com>
Date: 2011-10-04 12:19:40
Message-ID: CADVDRBjXW4DR1stPuPnw+=7x4Po-iTVcjKuTiFPgwE4ycuOg1Q () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Tom Swindell <t.swindell@rubyx.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:58 +0200, Jeremiah Foster wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Sivan Greenberg <sivan@omniqueue.com>
> > wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Carsten Munk
> > <carsten@maemo.org> wrote:
> > > Long story short: buildd and launchpad is very useful but
> > only when
> > > you're doing Debian and Debian only.
> >
> >
> > Except it was built by Canonical for Ubuntu and is used by Linaro. But
> > perhaps those two things are "Debian" too?
> >
> > OBS is different in many
> > > different ways and allows a proper productization
> > environment as well
> > > as growing an organisation organically.
> >
> >
> >
> > What does that even mean?
>
> OBS is built with packaging in mind, so it builds packages locally and
> on servers in a sanitized environment. Scratchbox may be polluted by
> whatever packages a developer has installed and makes dependency
> tracking a bit harder IMO.
>
I agree that working in a dirty chroot is problematic. That is why there is
pbuilder and cowdancer.
>
> I think what Carsten means by "growing an organisation organically" is
> that OBS allows multiple users to create their own repositories, it
> allows us to separate different projects into different repositories for
> staging or logical separation and it's easy and intuitive to do all of
> this from the web interface and to tools provided.
>
This is likely what he's referring to. But as someone who is concerned with
integration, this is bordering on a misfeature. What is happening is that
each repository is a separate Linux distro. This makes integration a
complete nightmare and unlikely to occur. Look a the ABI break that occurred
in MeeGo for ARM. That effectively killed any release of that distro.
Just because you can build your own Linux distro doesn't mean you should.
>
> OBS may not offer anything more or less than Launchpad or buildd, but it
> is completely open source and it targets many more distributions than
> Launchpad or buildd do.
>
And more package formats, processor virtualization, per-package compiler
flags, and a mock version control tool, etc. But all these things can mean
that your package will not work with other distros and then we are back to
everyone doing their own thing. How does that help move free software
forward? It doesn't, it only encourages the silo effect and Not Invented
Here.
Before it was just big companies that could create their own Linux distros
(before that everyone had their bespoke UNIX distro) nowadays fragmentation
is brought to you by every Tom, Dick and Harry with an OBS login.
I've been down the fragmentation road before. It always ends with retracing
your path back to the main highway.
Regards,
Jeremiah
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Tom Swindell <span dir="ltr"><<a \
href="mailto:t.swindell@rubyx.co.uk">t.swindell@rubyx.co.uk</a>></span> \
wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 \
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <div class="im">On Tue, <a \
href="tel:2011-10-04" value="+4620111004">2011-10-04</a> at 13:58 +0200, Jeremiah \
Foster wrote:<br> > On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Sivan Greenberg <<a \
href="mailto:sivan@omniqueue.com">sivan@omniqueue.com</a>><br> > wrote:<br>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Carsten Munk<br>
> <<a href="mailto:carsten@maemo.org">carsten@maemo.org</a>> \
wrote:<br> > > Long story short: buildd and launchpad is very useful \
but<br> > only when<br>
> > you're doing Debian and Debian only.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Except it was built by Canonical for Ubuntu and is used by Linaro. But<br>
> perhaps those two things are "Debian" too?<br>
><br>
> OBS is different in many<br>
> > different ways and allows a proper productization<br>
> environment as well<br>
> > as growing an organisation organically.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> What does that even mean?<br>
<br>
</div>OBS is built with packaging in mind, so it builds packages locally and<br>
on servers in a sanitized environment. Scratchbox may be polluted by<br>
whatever packages a developer has installed and makes dependency<br>
tracking a bit harder IMO.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that working \
in a dirty chroot is problematic. That is why there is pbuilder and \
cowdancer.</div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 \
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
I think what Carsten means by "growing an organisation organically" is<br>
that OBS allows multiple users to create their own repositories, it<br>
allows us to separate different projects into different repositories for<br>
staging or logical separation and it's easy and intuitive to do all of<br>
this from the web interface and to tools \
provided.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is likely what he's referring \
to. But as someone who is concerned with integration, this is bordering on a \
misfeature. What is happening is that each repository is a separate Linux distro. \
This makes integration a complete nightmare and unlikely to occur. Look a the ABI \
break that occurred in MeeGo for ARM. That effectively killed any release of that \
distro. </div> <div><br></div><div>Just because you can build your own Linux distro \
doesn't mean you should. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 \
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> <br>
OBS may not offer anything more or less than Launchpad or buildd, but it<br>
is completely open source and it targets many more distributions than<br>
Launchpad or buildd do.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And more package formats, \
processor virtualization, per-package compiler flags, and a mock version control \
tool, etc. But all these things can mean that your package will not work with other \
distros and then we are back to everyone doing their own thing. How does that help \
move free software forward? It doesn't, it only encourages the silo effect and \
Not Invented Here. </div> <div><br></div><div>Before it was just big companies that \
could create their own Linux distros (before that everyone had their bespoke UNIX \
distro) nowadays fragmentation is brought to you by every Tom, Dick and Harry with an \
OBS login. </div> <div><br></div><div>I've been down the fragmentation road \
before. It always ends with retracing your path back to the main \
highway.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Jeremiah</div><div><br></div>
<div><br></div></div>
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