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List:       kwrite-devel
Subject:    Re: A discussion about kate's configuration dialog
From:       Christoph Cullmann <cullmann () babylon2k ! de>
Date:       2005-03-31 21:49:28
Message-ID: 200503312349.31329 () cullmann
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next part of log, and seems to be end of that stuff, as aseigo doesn'T seem to 
be very robust if you oppose one specific regrouping


<cullmann> aseigo: than mom, let me propose this: remove the highligthing 
config page
<sredna> I have to go to bed
<cullmann> aseigo: or at least rename ;)
<aseigo> sredna: g'nite man
<cullmann> sredna: night anders ;)
<slayerbob> nite sredna
<sredna> I'll copy this discussion and mail it to kwrite-ddevel@
<aseigo> cool
<cullmann> aseigo: the whole problem is: where to place the really technical 
stuff there?
<cullmann> aseigo: no normal user will need to change the settings there
<aseigo> it's not about technical vs non-technical
<cullmann> aseigo: than more simple: have you ever changed there something?
<aseigo> it's about grouping your settings in a way that makes sense to people 
without forcing them to learn how katepart itself works inside out
<aseigo> no, i haven't.
<cullmann> you see, like 99% of all people
<cullmann> therefor this page's name confuses
<cullmann> as 100% of all users went just to colors & fonts if they want to 
change colors & fonts
<cullmann> if they wouldn't be distracted by this page
<cullmann> (if they actually know that highlighting has to do with colors & 
fonts)
<cullmann> what's the problem: where to place the options which tweak the 
technical part of the hl stuff, which is not visible to the user at all in 
the end, beside detection and so on
<cullmann> to split colors & fonts is a nogo, this was one of the most 
problematic parts of older versions, got complains by everybody, because 
nobody search for font and color settings went to the hl page
<sredna> Ok, I mailed a the discussion to where I waid I would, so if you 
continue, could someone add that as a reply?
<cullmann> sredna: sure
<sredna> And aseigo, thank you for joining and helping with this :)
<dh> cool. Then I'll quit, too , n8
 Signoff: dh ("101010")
<sredna> And slayerbob: Thanks for supporting us poor non-english speakers 
once more :p
<slayerbob> i don't speak english :P
<slayerbob> but np
<cullmann> aseigo: an other problem would be that the highligthing color 
config would be still needed to be schema dependent
<cullmann> aseigo: which wouldn't be that nice for the users to get, if they 
are clustered over two pages
<aseigo> sure.. but the schema settings don't have to be all on the same page 
if that's not how people use them
<aseigo> if the use case is "set up a schema, from choosing my display font to 
the highlighting colours for C++" then it's probably set up right as it is 
now
<aseigo> but if the use cases are "change my display fonts" and "change how 
C++ highlighting is done" then it isn't
<cullmann> aseigo: you don'T change how your hl is done, you change there only 
fonts & colors
<aseigo> in which case, there should be a place to play with your highlighting 
settings and a place to set up display settings
<cullmann> aseigo: my use case is the "change the color of my types"
<cullmann> aseigo: I don't think users think: "oh, I want green int's, that 
means I must change highlighting"
<aseigo> well, yes, you change the fonts and colours.
<aseigo> that's part of "what happens when i load a C++ file"
<aseigo> what do they change then?
 Signoff: sredna (Remote closed the connection)
<cullmann> but why should users go over to the hl page to change this colors
<cullmann> if the others are changed on colors?
<aseigo> because that's what "mimetype specific highlighting" is?
<cullmann> I don't think that degrouping this settings make sense
<cullmann> and how would the users get any relation between the default styles 
and the hl styles?
<cullmann> I mean, if the hl styles aren't that the colors page, than the 
"normal text styles" makes no sense at all
<aseigo> that's why i said that the normal text style should be "just another" 
highlight setting
<cullmann> ?
<aseigo> see, you're considering this from an implementation POV
<cullmann> k, than where is the usecase "I want to change my normal text font 
color" ?
<aseigo> "there's the default colour settings, and then there are mimetype 
specific settings
<aseigo> that's a developer of a text editor speaking
<aseigo> for a _user_ there's "default highlighting" and "C++ highlighting 
that overrides the defaults"
<aseigo> there is no difference between "normal" and "C++" other than what 
they apply to
<cullmann> no user will go to the highlighting page to change it's normal font 
color, or?
<aseigo> isn't that what those colours are though? formatting colours?
<aseigo> what is the difference, for a user, between "Normal Text Style : 
Keyword" and "C++: Keyword"
<cullmann> aseigo: come back to my use case, where needs the user to go to 
change the "normal text style"
<cullmann> aseigo: should he go to hl page or colors page?
<aseigo> i don't think there should be a colours page =)
<cullmann> you mean you shouldn't be able to adjust the color there?
<aseigo> there should be a page where you go to configure the text 
highlighting
<cullmann> no
<cullmann> and if you say yes, than reality has proven you wrong, as exactly 
this was one of number one bugs of the whole 2.x release cycle, nobody ever 
found this out
<cullmann> nobody have ever understood this, and this won't work
<cullmann> we had it, we had a highlighting page where you did that all
<cullmann> and what was the problem: no user found ever out how to change the 
default text color
 aseigo needs a taperecorder.
<aseigo> stop letting users design your gui
<cullmann> that's nice
<aseigo> figure out WHAT isn't working
<aseigo> and fix that.
<cullmann> but this page IS working
<cullmann> as it is
<cullmann> that's even perhaps the only page which sole problem is completly 
borked wording
<cullmann> like "schema"
<aseigo> right. and you've got similar settings spread out over the rest of 
the kingdom
<cullmann> but this page works
<cullmann> no
<cullmann> there is no sole color and font setting on any other page
<cullmann> nor any other settings altering the colors or fonts
<cullmann> nothing
<cullmann> nowhere
<cullmann> both UI wise and code wise
<aseigo> you mean like the highlight page, right?
<aseigo> where the user actually manages the highlight settings?
<cullmann> there is no sole setting about fonts and colors
<cullmann> no
<aseigo> whatever.. keep going as you wish.
<cullmann> simply wrong
<aseigo> kate's config is obviously a picnic in the park ...
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> I can understand that the most pages are clustered
<cullmann> but this one, is really clean
<cullmann> that the highlighting page distracts, I could even understand
<aseigo> yes, this ONE page is really clean
<cullmann> but the settings there are completly seperate from the concept of 
fonts and colors
<aseigo> if this ONE page were the ONLY page then things would be golden
<cullmann> they don't interact at all
<aseigo> unfortunately, it makes NO sense given ALL the settings
<cullmann> that's not true
<cullmann> if highlighting page would be away, would there be any issue?
<aseigo> well, like i said. continue as you wish if you are content with the 
configuration dialogs
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> I still don'T get that, why are you that "all or nothing"
<cullmann> you can'T simply turn the whole stuff upwards down, if there is no 
consense at all about this
<cullmann> like said: what is wrong with the colors & fonts page if you remove 
the highlighting page at all?
<cullmann> is there still the problem with the "it makes no sense"? are other 
overlapping pages?
<cullmann> or semantical overlapping options?
<aseigo> well, if we remove the highlight page, and remove the filetypes 
page... then we'd be a lot closer
<cullmann> yes, the problem is: they are only for advanced users, and 
normally, in a ideal world, would be hidden for all normal people out there
<aseigo> but right now there are two competing concepts with no consistency:
<aseigo> schemas ... highlighting
<cullmann> no
<cullmann> that is no competitiont
<aseigo> lol
<cullmann> then problem is: atm kate allows to tweak your HL DETECTION
<aseigo> dude, do you manage highlighting methods
<cullmann> this causes the existance of the highlighting page
<aseigo> or do you manage schemas?
<aseigo> right now, you manage both
<cullmann> you know that both are not the same, or?
<cullmann> and that both are not contradicting?
<aseigo> yes, i'm aware of what is on each page. i'm looking at them right now
<aseigo> ok. do this for me.
<aseigo> go to Highlight Text Styles tab. tell me what the FIRST drop down on 
that tab is
<cullmann> it selects which schema you edit
<cullmann> which defaults to the normal schema your app uses for all 
displaying
<aseigo> no.
<cullmann> ?
<aseigo> the first combo on the Highlighting Text Styles tabe
<aseigo> er, tab
<aseigo> it's Highlight
<cullmann> on the tab?
<cullmann> k, me misread
<cullmann> yes, true
<aseigo> and it selects entries like Source/Cg
<cullmann> yes, correct
<cullmann> me just missed the "tab"
<aseigo> no.. go to the highlight page and tell me what the first combo box is
<aseigo> er, now.. go to...
<cullmann> it selects for which highlighting the styles should be shown on the 
page to be edited
<cullmann> k
<cullmann> now you want hl page
<cullmann> you select the hl for which you want to change the detection 
parameters
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> on the schema page: hl tab: combo selects hl for which the styles 
should be changed
<aseigo> (sorry, i'm on the phone here at the same time =)
<aseigo> (ergo my slowness)
<cullmann> on the hl page: combo selects hl for which the detection should be 
tweaked
<aseigo> so, my point is that you manage Highlight settings on both pages
<aseigo> and one of them is actually _called_ Highlight
<aseigo> er, Highlighting
<cullmann> that's the problem
<aseigo> the other is called Fonts and Colors
<cullmann> the one which is called hl is there only because it is for advanced 
users and doesn't fit in any pattern
<cullmann> and no, regrouping that is no solution
<aseigo> and the Highlight settings are actually on the fourth tab of the 
Fonts and Colours tab
<aseigo> lol
<aseigo> it doesn't fit any pattern because there are no patterns in the 
current dialog
<cullmann> no
<aseigo> that's sort of the problem ehre
<aseigo> er, here
<aseigo> and if you say "regrouping is no solution" then that's that
<aseigo> kate can continue to have it's horrible configuration dialog because 
it must be grouped as it is
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> you still no get it? it is not doable for the colors & fonts stuff, 
it hasn'T worked out to be grouped the other way
<cullmann> I know, we have tried, it did fail, as it wasn't understood
<aseigo> great =)
<cullmann> if you will reteach the human world, I would agree
<cullmann> but if you want to have tabs and indent on one page, even if this 
is not logical as tabs != indent, only because users expects that, than it's 
more than natural to have the color & fonts stuff on one page
<cullmann> and not grouped on hl only because the hl detection logical belongs 
to the hl colors
 aseigo sighs
 aseigo gives up
<cullmann> I mean, come on, on the one side you argument: a use case "change 
indent" needs tab width on indent page
<cullmann> because users expects that
<cullmann> as tabs == indent for users
<cullmann> but on the other side, you want ot seperate colors from colors, 
just because the technical internal implementation groups the detection of hl 
stuff together with there colors
<aseigo> i'm glad you've managed to escape understanding what i've been trying 
to communicate completely
<cullmann> ?
<slayerbob> heh
<aseigo> i'll go work on my communication skills, you can go learn how to 
design GUIs and we'll reconvene in a year's time
 aseigo scratches katepart off his list.
 aseigo has left channel #Kate
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> does I get it wrong
<slayerbob> yup
<cullmann> or is aseigo not at all able to make compromises ?
<slayerbob> er you are missing the point...
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> why?
<cullmann> on the one hand, he argues, we need to come up with use cases
<cullmann> which I can understand
<cullmann> I mean, k, if the use case for "change indentation" leads to 
regrouping of tabs to indentation, I am happy
<cullmann> but why does the use case "I want change my colors of an int" lead 
to grouping of the color config for hl together with the detection config?
<cullmann> I mean, hey?
<cullmann> really
<cullmann> detection and colors/fonts have nothing to do with each other
<slayerbob> detection of what ?
<cullmann> detection of hl
<cullmann> I can understand: the hl page distracts
<slayerbob> they have everything to do with each other
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> would you miss this page?
<slayerbob> the highlighting only exists as a result of the correct detection
<slayerbob> LOL
<cullmann> no, really?
<slayerbob> i do not even use indentation, let alone highlighting
<cullmann> would you go there to change your colors?
<cullmann> I mean: if you don't want green ints, would you automagically went 
to highlighting or to colors?
<slayerbob> i would not go anywhere i change colours, but i still think that 
aseigo is right about the structure
<slayerbob> *to
<cullmann> ? why should highlighting detection and colors be grouped?
<cullmann> I mean, live has shown, this doesn't work
<cullmann> I know, as users complained
 slayerbob sighs
<cullmann> ?
<cullmann> could I get the point?
<cullmann> what does my best UI style help if it is not usable?
<slayerbob> does it occur to you that perhaps aseigo has an entirely different 
interface in mind to the previous one that people complained about ?
<cullmann> no
<cullmann> his point was: group together hl detection and colors
<cullmann> I only argued about this one point
<slayerbob> his point is valid
<cullmann> why?
<slayerbob> if people could not find it before i suspect it was because of the 
naming more than anything else
<cullmann> no
<slayerbob> because they logically should be placed together
<cullmann> it was named "Highlighting"
<cullmann> and it had the hl styles and detection grouped together
<cullmann> and there existed a seperate page for fonts & colors (I guess even 
one for fonts,and one for colors, alone, called "Colors", "fonts")
<cullmann> which contained the settings for the basefont and the background 
colors
<cullmann> and what did life tell us: even with this highlighting settings 
grouped together, nicely, nearly everybody failed to even be able to do the 
simplest usecase "change the normal text styel"
<cullmann> as nobody expects that even in the "None" hl mode, he had to go to 
the hl config page
<cullmann> and me still not get why aseigo can'T deal with that I won't turn 
the whole config upwards down
<cullmann> I mean: let regroup everything like he wants
<cullmann> but there must be room for disscussions
<cullmann> as lateron I must revert it again as I get the bugs in the kde 3.5 
release
<cullmann> k, but me needs sleep
<cullmann> night
<slayerbob> nite

-- 
Christoph Cullmann
KDE Developer, kde.org Maintainance Team
http://www.babylon2k.de, cullmann@kde.org

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