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List: koffice-devel
Subject: Re: New maintainer for KChart
From: "Jos Poortvliet" <jospoortvliet () gmail ! com>
Date: 2008-09-04 9:19:38
Message-ID: 5847e5cf0809040219q27fa088fq669a1ece3c218bef () mail ! gmail ! com
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On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Alexandra Leisse <alexandra@untangled.biz>wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Inge Wallin <inge@lysator.liu.se> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 02 September 2008 15:21:22 Alexandra Leisse wrote:
> >>
> >> As I wrote earlier I was working on a concept for that. I put up a
> >> google doc which can be found here:
> >> http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcnp6zq6_87f5kg58hk
> >>
> >> Please consider it as a draft and comment on it. It's mostly common
> >> sense but I hope it's a useful point to start from. If anybody wants
> >> to collaborate on it, let me know and I'll send you an invite.
> >
> > Ok, here are some comments, some more general than others:
>
> First, thanks for commenting :)
> I already got nice feedback from Jos, so I cc him to this message (as
> I have no clue whether he reads this list).
>
Indeed I don't
>
> Maybe we should first make clear what exactly we plan to talk about -
> the as-is for 2.0 or the vision. I personally go for the vision but I
> can see that this might get us into trouble with those guys expecting
> everything up and working in a .0 release. Been there, seen it...
>
I fully agree we should focus on the vision. A vision is often much more
compelling than just a list of features. Of course we should mention
features, but clearly state the missing parts and defects. Up and downsides
need to be clearly communicated, to prevent a '4.0' response from the
public. After all - why a release? We release for two main reasons: get the
code out there for others to play with, and get feedback. We should make
this clear.
> > 1. I don't think we can press the "most comprehensive" point for 2.0.
> First,
> > many of the applications in KOffice 1.6 won't be released with 2.0 but
> > instead 2.1. Second, I actually counted the components in MS Office and
> they
> > have more. If we include the apps of kdepim (kontact), then we are at
> the
> > top again. We could make a case that we should because outlook is part
> of
> > MSO, but right now the statement above is just not true.
>
> Okay. I figure this is something for the long-term commuication then.
> But we should mention the apps to come in later releases to make clear
> where this is heading to.
>
> > 2. Clean source code is indeed a strong selling point, but not to the end
> > users. It is indeed easy to tailor to specific use-cases and this is
> where
> > KOffice will shine very much eventually. This should be a strong point
> in
> > our long-term message.
>
> Yes and no. 2.0 is to be considered as a developer release, users are
> not the main target anyway at this point. Now, if we're targeting
> eventual new contributors, this is indeed a strong point. I can't
> code, but I know how hard it is to read someone elses CSS for example,
> especially when it comes to finding bugs. Conclusion: for developers
> this is something we should stress.
>
> > 3. "Easy to Understand". This has yet to be proven. :-)
> > I think that in general, KOffice *is* easy to understand. There is a
> risk,
> > though, that some quirks of 2.0 will hide this. Is there a risk for a
> > backlash?
>
> There is a risk. That's why we have to be careful about the strategy
> of what presenting to whom. We should be honest about what is not
> working yet and what will probably not be fixed during the next
> months. Jos suggested to include those defacts even into that google
> document to make sure we're all aware of the traps. What we should
> point out is that with such a huge change in concept and technology
> here, many people might not feel comfortable at first, but that we
> believe that those changes do improve their workflow (buzzzzzz).
>
Exactly my point.
> > 4. I think you missed one of our very strongest points: Cross platform
> > compatibility.
>
> I called it portability... maybe not the wisest choice, but it is there.
> ;-)
>
> > 5. Your document doesn't mention the duality of KOffice and KAtelier --
> the
> > artistic suite made up of (currently) Krita and Karbon. I honestly don't
> know
> > how to treat this, as I don't know what makes artists tick.
>
> That gave me a bit of a headache too. I currently have no real clue
> who is exactly targeted. I understood - and think that's right - that
> it's for those who are looking for a graphics application and who are
> not considering a part of an office suite fulfilling their needs.
> Artists is a bit fuzzy to me. Any specification will be helpful.
>
I think we should just communicate that KOffice is a merger of apps
focussing on creativity (KAtelier, shouldn't this get a new, more sexy
name?) and productivity, bringing them together. In time, creativity,
productivity and communication (KDE PIM) can be brought together. On that
note, maybe a combined KDE PIM and KOffice meeting with a brainstorm about
further integration & cooperation would be a good thing. I'd love to attend
such a meeting and help with the brainstorm session.
>
> > 6. The website.
> > Our message needs to be enhanced by a good web site. I read on the devel
> list
> > that somebody wanted to fix it, but I haven't seen so much outcome of
> that
> > (yet?).
>
> Very true. The concept was nice though. Maybe some interim solution
> would help as I doubt there will be the best of all websites available
> before the release. And I actually liked the mockup Bodewijn
> mentioned.
>
> > 7. Roadmap
> > In short, we should have one. :-)
>
> Cool. That would be very helpful for me and my talk. *cough*
>
> > 7. KDE
> > We need to sync our messages and press releases with the ones from KDE.
> We
> > should be able to ride the wave of cross-platform applications from KDE
> in
> > general.
>
> That was my intention, too. KDE is already moving into so many
> directions that it would simply be stupid not to use the attention the
> project creates as a whole.
>
> > Alexandra, would you be able to come to a koffice meeting in Berlin at
> the end
> > of November to discuss and finalize the plans?
>
> I'd be happy to join forces there and to help making this fly. I'm not
> available though for the weekend of 15th/16th, but the rest of
> November is fine for me. (BTW is anybody tracking the ins and outs of
> everybody who answered to the other track? Should we put up a wiki
> site to keep all information in one place?)
>
> -- Alexandra
>
[Attachment #5 (text/html)]
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Alexandra Leisse <span \
dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:alexandra@untangled.biz">alexandra@untangled.biz</a>></span> \
wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; \
padding-left: 1ex;"> On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Inge Wallin <<a \
href="mailto:inge@lysator.liu.se">inge@lysator.liu.se</a>> wrote:<br> > On \
Tuesday 02 September 2008 15:21:22 Alexandra Leisse wrote:<br> >><br>
>> As I wrote earlier I was working on a concept for that. I put up a<br>
>> google doc which can be found here:<br>
>> <a href="http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcnp6zq6_87f5kg58hk" \
target="_blank">http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcnp6zq6_87f5kg58hk</a><br> \
>><br> >> Please consider it as a draft and comment on it. It's \
mostly common<br> >> sense but I hope it's a useful point to start from. If \
anybody wants<br> >> to collaborate on it, let me know and I'll send you an \
invite.<br> ><br>
> Ok, here are some comments, some more general than others:<br>
<br>
First, thanks for commenting :)<br>
I already got nice feedback from Jos, so I cc him to this message (as<br>
I have no clue whether he reads this list).<br></blockquote><div>Indeed I don't \
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, \
204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <br>
Maybe we should first make clear what exactly we plan to talk about -<br>
the as-is for 2.0 or the vision. I personally go for the vision but I<br>
can see that this might get us into trouble with those guys expecting<br>
everything up and working in a .0 release. Been there, seen it...<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I fully agree we should focus on the vision. A vision is often \
much more compelling than just a list of features. Of course we should mention \
features, but clearly state the missing parts and defects. Up and downsides need to \
be clearly communicated, to prevent a '4.0' response from the public. After \
all - why a release? We release for two main reasons: get the code out there for \
others to play with, and get feedback. We should make this clear.<br> \
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, \
204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br> > 1. I don't think \
we can press the "most comprehensive" point for 2.0. First,<br> > many \
of the applications in KOffice 1.6 won't be released with 2.0 but<br> > \
instead 2.1. Second, I actually counted the components in MS Office and they<br> > \
have more. If we include the apps of kdepim (kontact), then we are at the<br> \
> top again. We could make a case that we should because outlook is part \
of<br> > MSO, but right now the statement above is just not true.<br>
<br>
Okay. I figure this is something for the long-term commuication then.<br>
But we should mention the apps to come in later releases to make clear<br>
where this is heading to.<br>
<br>
> 2. Clean source code is indeed a strong selling point, but not to the end<br>
> users. It is indeed easy to tailor to specific use-cases and this is where<br>
> KOffice will shine very much eventually. This should be a strong point \
in<br> > our long-term message.<br>
<br>
Yes and no. 2.0 is to be considered as a developer release, users are<br>
not the main target anyway at this point. Now, if we're targeting<br>
eventual new contributors, this is indeed a strong point. I can't<br>
code, but I know how hard it is to read someone elses CSS for example,<br>
especially when it comes to finding bugs. Conclusion: for developers<br>
this is something we should stress.<br>
<br>
> 3. "Easy to Understand". This has yet to be proven. :-)<br>
> I think that in general, KOffice *is* easy to understand. There is a \
risk,<br> > though, that some quirks of 2.0 will hide this. Is there a risk for \
a<br> > backlash?<br>
<br>
There is a risk. That's why we have to be careful about the strategy<br>
of what presenting to whom. We should be honest about what is not<br>
working yet and what will probably not be fixed during the next<br>
months. Jos suggested to include those defacts even into that google<br>
document to make sure we're all aware of the traps. What we should<br>
point out is that with such a huge change in concept and technology<br>
here, many people might not feel comfortable at first, but that we<br>
believe that those changes do improve their workflow (buzzzzzz).<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Exactly my point.<br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; \
padding-left: 1ex;"><br> > 4. I think you missed one of our very strongest points: \
Cross platform<br> > compatibility.<br>
<br>
I called it portability... maybe not the wisest choice, but it is there. ;-)<br>
<br>
> 5. Your document doesn't mention the duality of KOffice and KAtelier -- \
the<br> > artistic suite made up of (currently) Krita and Karbon. I honestly \
don't know<br> > how to treat this, as I don't know what makes artists \
tick.<br> <br>
That gave me a bit of a headache too. I currently have no real clue<br>
who is exactly targeted. I understood - and think that's right - that<br>
it's for those who are looking for a graphics application and who are<br>
not considering a part of an office suite fulfilling their needs.<br>
Artists is a bit fuzzy to me. Any specification will be helpful.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>I think we should just communicate that KOffice is a merger of \
apps focussing on creativity (KAtelier, shouldn't this get a new, more sexy \
name?) and productivity, bringing them together. In time, creativity, productivity \
and communication (KDE PIM) can be brought together. On that note, maybe a combined \
KDE PIM and KOffice meeting with a brainstorm about further integration & \
cooperation would be a good thing. I'd love to attend such a meeting and help \
with the brainstorm session.<br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" \
style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; \
padding-left: 1ex;"><br> > 6. The website.<br>
> Our message needs to be enhanced by a good web site. I read on the devel \
list<br> > that somebody wanted to fix it, but I haven't seen so much outcome \
of that<br> > (yet?).<br>
<br>
Very true. The concept was nice though. Maybe some interim solution<br>
would help as I doubt there will be the best of all websites available<br>
before the release. And I actually liked the mockup Bodewijn<br>
mentioned.<br>
<br>
> 7. Roadmap<br>
> In short, we should have one. :-)<br>
<br>
Cool. That would be very helpful for me and my talk. *cough*<br>
<br>
> 7. KDE<br>
> We need to sync our messages and press releases with the ones from KDE. We<br>
> should be able to ride the wave of cross-platform applications from KDE in<br>
> general.<br>
<br>
That was my intention, too. KDE is already moving into so many<br>
directions that it would simply be stupid not to use the attention the<br>
project creates as a whole.<br>
<br>
> Alexandra, would you be able to come to a koffice meeting in Berlin at the \
end<br> > of November to discuss and finalize the plans?<br>
<br>
I'd be happy to join forces there and to help making this fly. I'm not<br>
available though for the weekend of 15th/16th, but the rest of<br>
November is fine for me. (BTW is anybody tracking the ins and outs of<br>
everybody who answered to the other track? Should we put up a wiki<br>
site to keep all information in one place?)<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
-- Alexandra<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br></div>
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