[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread] 

List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Re: Small KOffice interaction design meeting in middle november?
From:       "Aaron J. Seigo" <aseigo () kde ! org>
Date:       2006-11-04 18:14:43
Message-ID: 200611041114.43501.aseigo () kde ! org
[Download RAW message or body]

[Attachment #2 (multipart/signed)]


On Saturday 04 November 2006 6:56, Sebastian Sauer wrote:
> On Friday 03 November 2006 19:53, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > > [...]
> >
> > bug: confusion of KDE's workspace with the KDE brand.
> >
> > > [...]
> >
> > bug: confusion of KDE's workspace with the KDE brand.
>
> propably mark the second as dup of the first one. that should safe at least
> half of the work :)

yep ... hehe DUPE!

> > > [...]
> >
> > bug: misidentifying KDE's image as "the corporate desktop". this is ONE
> > image.
>
> eh. So, KDE == coperate desktop while before it was not the case as you
> outlined at another reply within that thread? 

KDE is a corporate desktop, but not exclusively. there are multiple markets 
KDE is appropriate for and we shouldn't allow one of those to dictate how KDE 
is at the expense of the others.

> and where does you draw now the line to the "KDE workspace"? 

we defined this two years ago at aKademy in Spain. the definition was 
something along the lines of: "the application tools one needs to build a 
modern desktop working environment but which one wouldn't need on, for 
instance, Windows or MacOS. this would therefore include the desktop 
icons/wallpaper, the panels, the window manager, the control center app (not 
all the panels, though!), etc..."

> anyway. I guess it's a good example that 
> ppl may got confused of it like me is now and just start to see KDE as one
> big blob-field with lots of pieces in it like me does since the time I got
> introduced into this great project.

yes, we certainly do not do a good job of communicating the structure of KDE. 
there are technical structures we don't externalize well and there are also 
brand (marketing) positions/structures that we didn't even have defined for 
ourselves until very recently. in many cases we're -still- defining them =)

> > > For sure KO is and will stay forever part of KDE. But that's not the
> > > question since we don't deal with black and white here. ppl need to
> > > recognize FIRST that KOffice is a office.suite and SECOND or THEIRD
> > > that it's part of KDE and not the other way around.
> >
> > i think even this is the wrong granularity. people should identify with
> > the applications first and foremost. why?
>
> maybe because for example KOffice has something KDE (where I use the
> KDE-naming now to identify things like kdelibs+kicker+kwin+etc. or even

this is not what KDE is. let's try not to use it in this way, it's just 
confusing. kicker+kwin+.. is the workspace; kdelibs is the development 
platform. using these terms will let us know what we're each talking about 
clearly.

> only kdelibs+kdebase+etc.) has not? and maybe I, as user, even would see
> that "something" as _the_ core of KOffice. Or would you name e.g.
> OpenDoc-compatibility and office-productivity as the main goals of e.g.
> KDE/kdelibs/kdebase/kicker/kwin/...?

of course not. and it's not an either/or situation. it's the "genius of the 
and" at work: koffice is both KDE -and- it is a unique project in terms of 
its goals. that is precisely what makes koffice a brand, -and- that brand is 
part of the KDE brand as well. both. and.

> together and for sure that does not mean to don't mention the great
> (KDE-)desktop-integration, but that's in my eyes not the main reason to use
> them daily.

"the main reason to use them daily" is not why we create a unified brand 
called KDE.

people use MacOS, not "Apple". and because they like MacOS they also decide to 
use other Apple brands like iPod and iLife (and vice versa). Apple is their 
top level brand, as KDE is ours. MacOS is their workspace brand (well, and OS 
brand, but let's simplify for the sake of this discussion a bit) just as 
plasma will be our workspace brand.

it's a network effect. so when someone finds the amaroK is the best damn app 
for music playing they say, "hey, i wonder what these people do for 
spreadsheets?" and vice versa.

this is what Jaroslaw was referring to when he talked about Kexi bringing 
people into the larger world of KDE.

the value is added to by each quality application and we share that brand 
equity that we build together.

> I don't mind to say that I still use OOo-writer and OOo-impress rather then
> our own solutions. But I am proud to say that OOo-calc, OOo-math, OOo-base
> and Gimp got totaly replaced and not cause I am a fan-boy of
> KDE/KOffice/KParts/KIO/... just cause of one reason; KSpread, Krita,
> KFormula and Kexi _are_ better if it comes to solve the things they where
> designed for!

you're mistaking this for a technical discussion. it's not. it's a marketing 
discussion.

> > the app is a part of the KOffice brand which is a KDE brand.
>
> yeah, true. So, I also would extend my proposal to let e.g. Krita outline
> there strong sides. 

i agree. as part of the 'and' approach, not the 'or' approach that i see 
cropping up from time to time here and elsewhere.

> app. I don't care here on KOffice or that Krita may use internaly kdelibs,
> Qt, C++, ... I only care that it does what I like to do with it.

it's not that they use XYZ technology internally, it's that they are 
recognizable as belonging together. this happens through functional, visual 
and brand/marketing similarity.

> Also there is a good reason to differ between them PR-wise at least partly:

agreed.

> Also I don't care if Krita is per default on kubuntu while other ko-apps
> are not. I don't care if Kexi is on Windows while other ko-apps are not as
> I don't care if KOffice will be someday per default on xubuntu while
> KDE+kicker+kwin is not.
> At the end ppl will realize the advantage they have to use the whole highly
> integrated KDE desktop rather then only parts of it, but till then they
> should use as much parts as possible or at least realize on each "what is
> the best application to achieve goal xyz?" question may take those parts
> into account independ of what desktop they actualy run, prefer, hate or are
> in love with.

yes, this isn't about choice of desktop workspace. it is about building the 
strength both in the brands at each level (e.g. KDE, KOffice and Krita) while 
also creating technical strength at each of those levels.

> > > and earn that way at least the same number of "summer-devels" like
> > > abiword and gnumeric
> >
> > this would be nice to do achieve; does it matter if its under the KDE
> > umbrella or not though?
>
> ok, then replace it with a more inconcret goal like "let ppl realize that
> beside Textmaker, OOo or MSO they are also able to use KO." and don't
> receive a "KO? I don't use/like KDE/*nix!" answer if you suggest KO as an
> alternate that may fit into the request. So, it's all about extending the
> user-base whereever and however possible and let ppl realize that KO is
> more then kde+kicker+kwin+etc. It may reuse kde and is part of kde but
> first it's an office-suite that already kicks at a lot of levels.

the mistake i can see you making is trying to distance yourself from a brand 
and a community that can and does give koffice and krita more than it 
receives. "sum of the whole" and all that. you can stay near the brand, stay 
near the community, stay near the marketing themes AND achieve exactly what 
you state above.

ask inge, thomas or the others that were there in dublin: i advocated to them 
that koffice promote kofficelibs more visibly and work on raising the 
visibility and profile of each of the koffice apps individually as well as 
define publicly how these very different apps come from the same fountainhead 
of koffice. so we're completely on the same page there. 100%.

where i'm concerned there may be difference in viewpoint is in how this 
impacts the relationship with the KDE brand and community. and perhaps there 
isn't any difference and we can communicate that to each other in this thread 
and feel good about things.

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
humru othro a kohnu se
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

Full time KDE developer sponsored by Trolltech (http://www.trolltech.com)

[Attachment #5 (application/pgp-signature)]

_______________________________________________
koffice-devel mailing list
koffice-devel@kde.org
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/koffice-devel


[prev in list] [next in list] [prev in thread] [next in thread]