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List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Re: Observations on the new KWord startup dialog
From:       Thomas Zander <zander () planescape ! com>
Date:       2003-05-26 20:28:58
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On Mon, May 26, 2003 at 11:06:37AM -0600, Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> On Sunday 25 May 2003 04:41, Thomas Zander wrote:
> > On Sunday 25 May 2003 00:23, Charles de Miramon wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > I've looked the very promising screenshots of Thomas' work :
> > > http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/newconcept1.jpg
> > > http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/newconcept2.jpg
> > > http://linpacker.tuxfamily.org/newconcept3.jpg
> > >
> > > very nice.
> >
> > I'd like to hear the reasoning on what the advantage is to the current
> > dialog; this one shows all the same functions, only on different tabs.
> 
> the major problem with the old KOffice dialog's layout, IMHO, is that it mixes 
> a set of radio buttons with a set of selections (icon view, kfd via a push 
> button, a combobox, or nothing in the case of "New".

Ok, I understand. And I agree this makes it loose its usability.

Your point to the modality of the dialog makes me realize a problem that
I believe will only get worse with the proposed solution.
The way tabs are used in all applications is that they provide different
views to the same data.  One 'ok' on the dialog means you ok all the
changes on all the tabs.
The conclusion is that the proper place for the open/close buttons
is to replicate them on each tab, so a different button is pressed
for a different action.

IMO this is just a band-aid and does not really solve the problem.

The problem of this dialog is that we want the user to select using
a hierarchy of choices. The top level choices being the 'file'/'recent'/
template' ones.
Each top level choice leads to a very different path for the rest
of the choices.
The most obvious solution would be a wizard; but I don't see that as being
an improvement :)

> if one can get rid of the modality altogether, great! then you can put 
> everything in one dialog (assuming the required space exists) and it all make 
> sense. but if you can't get rid of the modality, then you should make it 
> clear what that modality is. the radio buttons don't accomplish this given 
> the way the KOffice dialog works. tab widgets aren't inherently evil, but 
> they need to be used where appropriate.

This is not an appropriate place.

> > > A search button to be able to launch an embed  KFind would be great
> >
> > KDE uses a document based approuch which means that file navigation is
> > placed in konqueror and not in the application.
> 
> hm? then what is KFD if it isn't file navigation? every application that 
> supports files provides file navigation via the open/save file dialogs...

This is what every user expects; but searching is not. No need to stretch
the allready blurred line of how and where you navigate or create your
documents.
The user needs this distinction to protect him from doing damage in 'the
other side'.
As this is searching (allready blurred) line might favor the idea;
and when Advanced Attributes and/or database searching is implemented
I am all for this. But for now the concept seems wrong to me.  Its just
one step away from 'why can't I delete my files using the KFD'-questions.

> > To put a KFile in the open dialog is not appropriate. IMO
> 
> it's a large number of widgets, that's certain.

Whats wrong with opening a new dialog with this? If only because it will
open in my last-opened size...
Other small things might be that if I open a file from a remote server
and then go to the create/open dialog again the 2nd tab will try to fetch
a dir listing of that remote server again...
No need to do all that. The file _dialog_ is there for a reason. Please
stick to that.


As to the real solution for a good dialog; I don't have a ready made
answer.  But I do know that it needs 
- a top-level choice to start walking down the different paths of selection
- a way to see the last-selected-value when opening the dialog so I can
just press 'open'.
- a second level selection for the different templates. So you can choose
things like 'stationary' and 'fax' from different folders as a 'A4'
- feedback on the selected choice other then the too-small radiobutton

Hmm; the hyperbolic tree comes to mind here :)
    http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/h3draw/gd98.ps.gz (1.2 Mb)

Removing the 'empty' and forcing the user to select a template seems
like a good choice to me.

Then the fact that the 'choose' and the 'open' are both closing the dialog
suggests they should be placed on the same level. I.e. next to each other.
Last; the user might appreciate feedback on his selection; page size and
comments come to mind here. (the tooltip idea I mentioned before).

Ok, quick scetch attached that might not be the end-all, but should at
the very least prove to solve more problems then most ideas I have seen
so far.

-- 
Thomas Zander


["KOffice open.png" (image/png)]

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