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List:       koffice-devel
Subject:    Re: Explanation on WP vs DTP modes in KWord (Re: Kde-cvs-digest request for information)
From:       Johannes Wilm <johanneswilm () yahoo ! no>
Date:       2002-12-02 15:03:23
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On Monday 02 December 2002 12:36, David Faure wrote:
> On Monday 02 December 2002 10:16, Johannes Wilm wrote:
> > Then the header/footer/footnote/endnote-thing could be put in the scripts
> > instead.
>
> Doesn't matter how they are implemented. My point is that in the
> mainframeset/header/footer/footnotes mode (aka WP), the frames for
> all those things are automatically positionned and resized.
> If you position yourself your frames (for a magazine-layout type of thing),
> do you really want that inserting (probably by mistake) a footnote, will
> suddently move and resize all your frames, to make room for the footnote at
> the bottom? The point is also that we only support footnotes in the
> mainframeset.... concept which doesn't exist in the page layout mode.

I get it. Please don't misunderstand me here...  I don't want to say that 
there isn't a lot of programming in what you have done. I am just saying that 
the WP-mode could become more and more of just a regular page-layout mode 
with just a bnch of scripts added specifically for people that are interested 
in WP-stuff.
You could then do stuff like may different "profiles" for key-shortcuts - so 
that you don't accidentally insert something you really don't want when 
working wth some DTP-stuff.
  
>
> Same thing with page margins: in WP mode, if you change your page
> margins, the main text frames will adjust to follow that - as one would
> expect from a word processor. But in DTP mode, you're free to put
> frames where you want - none is "bound to the margins", so the page
> margins actually make no real sense anymore in that mode.
> (Think about the case where you _reduce_ the margins. Should any
> frame "grow" to take advantage of this new additional space?
> In WP mode yes, in DTP mode no).

You could have an option under the page-layout: "resize all frames to fit 
within margins". It could be selected for the WP-template. People working 
with DTP might choose to do so, or might not. Another option could maybe be 
"Paint anything that is in the Margins in dark red".

>
> > The script for inserting  footnote would look something like this (fake
> > programming language):
>
> It's actually much more complex than that, with the stacking of footnotes
> from bottom to top, the overflowing footnote text onto the next page if the
> footnote reference in the text is too far down in the page (so the footnote
> text doesn't fully fit under it), etc.

The actual script to insert footnotes would probably have to be somewhat more 
comlicated (as you mention), and t would probably also include embedding some 
script in the document itself. Nevertheless it should be possible to 
transform the stuff you have written already into scripts... which would give 
greater freedom to the user, because he could basically implement his very 
own WP-mode (and quite a lot could be used to make specialiced DTP-scripts to 
make the weekly newspaper, etc.) for by combining different scripts...a by 
subclassing those scripts whose behaviour he doesn't like. It would also mean 
that the WP and the DTP-mode could fade into oneanother over time.

>
> > This should be an (almost) working script already. Then the
> > text-layout-mode could simply be a template of an page-layout-mode with a
> > "locked" center-frame (can be unlocked by right-clicking the border).
>
> Please grep the code for ::WP and you'll see all the places where we had to
> treat the two modes differently.

Oh I believe you. And I didn't want to say that it would go awy immediatly. I 
just thougt scripting would help the modes to be combined gradually.

>
> One example is "lower frame". In WP mode we prevent a frame from going
> under the main frameset, since that would make it totally disappear,
> confusing most users. In DTP mode there's no main frameset, so it's allowed
> to lower any frame under any other frame.

Option "background frame"?

>
> Yes, internally there's mostly one single design for both modes. Which is
> why it would be totally nonsense to split this into two applications.
> Apart from the "auto positioning of main frames", the other differences are
> small, mostly usability things (like the "lower frame" case).

True. It is actually a great strength as well. I have been trying to teach the 
guys at the office how to use quark forever - no luck.Then I switched the 
office to KDE and they used *very* few days to understand kword. After that 
it was just to explain the concept of text-frames and framesets - and they 
can all do DTP now! (Koffice can do most DTP we need after the "add page" 
thing was added). 
>
> > It would also mean that the Footnote-script cold be subclassed by
> > DTP-people for other stuff, or just inorder to insert footnotes exactly
> > how and where they want.
> > Other scripts, like "current Date" could maybe be scripts that are
> > imbedded in the Document itself, so one can modify/subclass one's
> > Datescript and preserve the difference when someone else opens he file on
> > their kword.
> > If anyone implements the scripting and the growing-direction stuff I can
> > try looking into converting several thngs into scripts (Some variables,
> > "Table of Contents", etc.)
>
> Your first assignment will be to actually implement scripting support :)

I am sorry, but I just feel like sounding like the typical newbie who is on a 
power-trip since he got to speak to the actual developers and is now sending 
demands in all directions. I therefor wanted to say that I really would like 
to help and not just demand - but scripting is the only thing I can, so thats 
why I would help there.
You are all really doing a great job and I appreciate it!


The stuff about printing several versions of the same thing on the same page 
would probabyl ideally be implemented in the printing-stuff. It could also be 
useful for stuff like making magazines with a page-size of A5 - while only 
having a printer for A4.

-- Johannes Wilm
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