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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    RE: Redhat 7.1 and KDE2.2 are go! - But not for everyone
From:       "Hoppin.Bob" <hoppin () niehs ! nih ! gov>
Date:       2001-08-20 19:06:31
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It is precisely distribution specific packaging problems that 
hold up acceptance of KDE.  If a user of another desktop
for which kde is not a default can't easily install a
release, he is unlikely to bother with kde.  Your assumtions
mean that users will not update between releases by the
distributors unless they are developer level or willing
to spend a lot of time at it.  And the worst part is that
the distributors will go with whichever desktop gives them
the less grief.  Once feature sets cover 80% of the most
used features, why would distributors really care about
the latest gee-whiz stuff over easy of installation?  Why
would KDE developers let Redhat's problems with packaging
KDE drive users to GNOME?  You are writing off a large
percentage of potential users.

The newsgroups are full of user/reviewers that go to development
sites, download
a distribution, try to get it running and then write it off
for no other reason than installation takes too long or is
too difficult; they do this because a UNIX guru who doesn't
mind spending a day working out directory and softlink problems
and working with CLI praises the latest release (in between,
say, Redhat releases).  I understand the trade-off between
development, fixing bugs and packaging; I've worked for
UNIX vendors.  But the mindset is wrong. You're creating
an easy-to-use gui interface but only targeting it at cli
proficient unix guru's who, in the end, don't rely on the
gui enough.  Users who are already using gnome from a
gnome default distribution will never seriously look at KDE.
Your advocates are ALWAYS touting the latest reasonably stable
release to people are either Windows users or people using
a competing desktop.

I can accept that the trade-off is not easy.  I can accept
that packaging is the LEAST fun part of KDE development.  But
it also deserves more emphasis because it is so hard to get
people to work on it.  I HEARD what you wrote.  I believe
that if you are NOT going to support the general user who
wants a better desktop, who is not a developer or CLI proficient,
you should do better PR to keep that class of USER from the
download site.  

I believe a PREFERABLE approach is to spend
whatever it takes to make a KDE package that can be installed
easily by a naive user on the one or two most heavily used
distributions.  
Especially distributions where KDE is not the default.  If
you want to support standards for easy package development then
support
that standard and pressure the distributors to conform.  I think it is
a definite mistake to tell potential users of KDE, "wait for the next
realse of <distribution of your choice>".

The WHOLE point of a GUI/desktop is to make the OS easier to use.  The
weak point for Linux (and UNIX) desktops (and other software as well)
is/are the packaging.  Your best advocates are USERS who appreciate
the latest stable releases and tout them to their equally naive
friends.

I'm curious whether the project keeps track of how many users are
using which Unix/LInux distributions and what level of user they
are.  Do you have goals for expanding that user base and are those
goals expressed in terms of the sophistication of the users?  Are
you REALLY just concerned with distributions and being the
default and therefore uninterested in the users who want to get
updates from the KDE project?  Are those working on the Kpackage
software thinking about this?

The response "you are free to make packages yourself and a nice system
to install them if 
you so wish, but if you take a recommendation to either fix RH or
support RH 
users to the KDE team on the devel lists, you will get the same
response I 
just gave." is precisely the problem.  KDE is my favorite desktop.  I
talk it
up to anyone who will listen (especially people fed up with MS).  But
I end up
saying "all those problems you've heard about are in release x.x, ,but
you
have to wait for Release y.y of Dist. z" because that potential user
isn't going
put up with bad packaging.  Or they say "it isn't standard with my
distribution and
you have to be a Unix/Linux guru to install that USER FRIENLDY
desktop".  When
I saw a "usability" project, I thought that Linux/Unix WOULD start to
seriously
convert users.  I know the project will improve user conversion, but
the weakest
link will remain.  Installation is the first usability issue the user
sees; it
deserves a lot of effort.

So. Having raved on ... I'll go over and see if I can make a serious
contribution
to the packaging softare.  And ... lest you think I don't appreciate
the considerable
efforts going to other issues, ... this project is the brightest light
in the
Linux/Unix forest.  Thankyou Aaron and all the other (mostly) unpaid
workers.

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron J. Seigo 
Sent: 2001, August 20, Monday 1:36 PM
To: kde-usability@mail.kde.org
Subject: Re: Redhat 7.1 and KDE2.2 are go! - But not for everyone


On Monday 20 August 2001 09:52, Hoppin.Bob wrote:
> Wrong; packaging is essential and the major problem for Linux
> acceptance
> in general.

did i say that packaging wasn't essential? no, that isn't what i said
at all. 
what i DID say was that distro-specfic packaging issues is not
something that 
the KDE project takes on. they instead leave that to the distro.

you are free to make packages yourself and a nice system to install
them if 
you so wish, but if you take a recommendation to either fix RH or
support RH 
users to the KDE team on the devel lists, you will get the same
response I 
just gave. that said, there is work on installer programs and there is
a 
package manager that is part of KDE2 (kpackage), but their goal is not
to 
help fix individual distribution's problems.

oh, and KDE is more than just a Linux desktop, it is a Unix desktop.

-- 
Aaron Seigo
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