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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Add F11 as full screen shortcut
From:       Peter <gostelow () global ! co ! za>
Date:       2009-06-05 3:21:35
Message-ID: 200906050321.39901.gostelow () global ! co ! za
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On Friday 05 June 2009 01:30, Brian Shannon wrote:
> You believe that we should provide defaults in an inconsistent manner
> throughout KDE because you don't believe we can provide consistency
> and that KDE developers are not interested in providing consistent,
> usable defaults for the end user.

Please read my email more carefully. KDE does not provide app defaults, app 
developers do. This not my belief, this a fact. I have said nothing about 
KDE's consistent use of defaults because that is not the topic.

Whether app defaults should be consistent or not, is not the topic, the fact 
is, they are inconsistent. Whether they should be, or not, is not the topic 
either, it is whether KDE defaults can be _used_ to make apps consistent.

The fact is, KDE defaults cannot make apps consistent because apps have their 
own defaults which KDE cannot set.

> You are making a case for the tech 
> savvy user and/or for educating users to configure their own systems.

I am making no such case. Whether users have the skill to use the technology 
is no grounds for KDE abusing it by attempting to prescribe user preferences, 
on behalf of users, as its defaults. KDE is not in a position to decide a 
user's preferences because it cannot know what they are. That is also a fact.

>
> On the other hand, I believe that we should provide a consistent,
> usable experience throughout KDE that users can sit down to use
> because I believe we can provide consistent defaults and that most KDE
> developers want to achieve this.

Again, this not the topic. The topic is whether KDE can use defaults to create 
consistency among apps. Technically, it cannot, but user configuration can do 
that. Not my belief, a fact. That's the way the technology works, whatever 
anyone's belief.

> I am making a case for the user who 
> isn't tech savvy and wants to configure as little as possible whilst
> allowing KDE users to configure their own systems as much as they want
> to.

That's admirable, but doesn't answer the question whether an additional 
shortcut will make apps more consistent. The fact that Dolphin developers 
have to change their defaults, is evidence that KDE cannot provide the 
promised consistency. Only app developers can do that. And there is no reason 
for them to do so, when the technology exists for each user to override the 
defaults.

>
> The reason why I have recapped is so you can see that this discussion
> will lead us nowhere. 

Well you haven't yet grasped what the original poster was asking, so I 
understand why you think this is leading nowhere.

> We each believe entirely different things and 
> neither of us are likely to change our opinions in the near future.

I believe we should use technology the way it was designed to be used. But 
this is not about what we believe, but the effects of KDE's decision on its 
users and the technical culture it will spawn.

> Furthermore, we are each guessing at the desires of KDE developers. I
> hope I have saved us from a long, pointless conversation.

What you have done is attempted to characterise my emails as a belief and 
point of view, whereas they are factual. By refusing to address my points you 
acknowledge they are true, and making off-topic remarks shows you're not 
ready to accept them.

My purpose for commenting on this thread is because I saw people had the 
expectation that defaults should be their preference and therefore engaged in 
a fruitless attempt to have their preference the default. This 
misunderstanding is what I wanted to expose. The reality is app developers 
have, and will continue, to set defaults as they deem appropriate and expect 
users to change them, regardless of KDE developer desires, or anyone else's.

I have no interest in changing anyone's belief because this is not about that, 
but how we use technology to achieve our goals.

Regards,

Peter
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