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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Show desktop behaviour
From:       Zak Jensen <coolguyzak () gmail ! com>
Date:       2005-10-03 0:58:31
Message-ID: 21bb44f30510021758y3e3e29cem4d0ed02df2aa2b9f () mail ! gmail ! com
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Side note: I am finding this discussion highly enjoyable and
enlightening. Thank you :)

On 10/2/05, Diego Moya <turingt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not for using them, but you need a way to organize them for retrieval.
> And some files will be left on the desktop for long term use, not just
> for the current session.

Oops. I meant open files--the ones being viewed or edited. I guess I
wasn't clearn enough there. :/

Hmm. I am not sure exactly how far plasma will be going, but I could
see some interesting uses, based on default configurations. However,
it will force a certain level of automation/magic into the system, and
that will cause problems... just remember to ask me later ;)

> Of course. But the point was that the computer desktop has stronger
> constraints than the physical one - you can't just intend to use the
> computer desktop like a real one, you should have a different workflow
> that relied on the computer strengths and not in its weakness. The
> desktop metaphor does the latter.

Looks like I just walked into that one ;)

> > http://kde-artists.org/main/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,48/expv,0/topic,238.0
> > http://kde-artists.org/main/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,48/expv,0/topic,158.0
> > (Read both pages of the "design mode" thread. I posted a rough mockup
> > on the 2nd page).
>
> The "formats" of plasmoids are a good idea. I think they should be
> used as different "views" of a same object - every plasmoid should be
> able to support all these four positions. The user should be able to
> move any plasmoid from one of these roles to any other one and it
> should keep working there. Is this how they're being designed?

That was actually an abstraction I made while considering how one
could implement design mode. Since the people at kde-artists are a god
deal less usability-oriented than I am, noone ever discussed the
utility of it. My general goal was to create a set of general
semantics to facilitate discussion. Didn't work well though ;)

> I've answered some concerns about the design mode in that thread. But
> moving common files should be done by default drag and drop/direct
> manipulation - the design mode should only be used for creating and
> resizing containers, not standalone items.

I havn't been to kde-artists in about a week, due to school and Civ
III taking up my time. I'll be sure to check that out later, though.

Looking at it in hindsight, I can agree with you. Drag and drop makes
things much simpler in the long run. (However, it can also make things
a bit more difficult. How does the system know when you mean to move
the item in the container, as opposed to the container itself? How do
you implement "extender" containers?)

> I'm not sure how much management does the desktop support, and how it
> maps to user goals? There should be high level management tools so
> that changing user goals doesn't require manual tweaking of the whole
> desktop configuration - some automation should be available.

Hopefully, Tenor/Kat and related plasmoids will make this not an
issue. Unfortunately, as this thread is demonstrating, the way such
high-level tools work (at least by default), is quite debatable. ;)

> That's what system-wide search is for. You can retrieve some files by
> position, but you can also find them by keyword, by content, date or
> any other attribute. Applets/plasmoids/active windows should also be
> searchable with the universal search tools.

Interesting concept, one that I definitely didn't consider. I'm not
used to this universal search stuff yet ;)

> > Easy overridability would be the difficult part. The obvious solution
> > (to me) would be to provide several buttons (not by default) which
> > perform the action in a different manner. So, for instance, there
> > would be the intelligent button, the "minimize all windows" button,
> > etc.
>
> I have a proposal for an interface that could do the trick. Where is
> the best forum to explain it and attach some mockups? The kde-artists
> forum has several threads with suggestions for new features, but I
> don't know if there's enough usability people there or I should post
> it to this mailing list.

KDE-Artists is a good place to start refining ideas. They usually
express excitement and interest there, as well as propose stuff you
might never have thought of. Occasionally, there is some usability
discussion/argument. Such things are generally carried through (and
started) by Janne and/or myself. However, it is mostly a "repository
of creativity". Either way, it is usually a good place to start, and
the best ideas normally end up with great inkscape eye-candy. Once you
feel that your idea has progressed to the extent possible, then I'd
mention it here or to the open-usability guys.

> Unfamiliar isn't that bad when you use standard lore about human
> interaction. iTunes was unfamiliar when it came out and became a great
> hit because of its superior song management capabilities. Mezzo is
> different to other desktops, but it's quite similar to kiosk help
> systems that you find in public places; and it has a simple two-level
> structure that doesn't put any burden on user memory. Contrast this to
> the several layers deep hierarchical K-menu in KDE.

Yeh. A large portion of my email was apologizing for mis-citing and
agreeing with you. My mind goes haywire on occasion, and things get
garbled. ;)
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