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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: [another PATCH]: Kicker find as you type
From:       Fred Schaettgen <Sch () ttgen ! net>
Date:       2005-05-04 10:33:21
Message-ID: 200505041233.22575.Sch () ttgen ! net
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On Tuesday, 3. May 2005 19:57, seele@obso1337.org wrote:
> i think were missing the bigger issue: why is it so hard to find
> applications in the menu?  maybe we should address conventions for better
> naming and organizing of the menu than trying to get around the problem.

Go ahead. 
Everybody is complaining about the poor structure of the kmenu, but the only 
solution I've heard of was to put applications in every related submenu, thus 
making the menu even bigger.
You can come up with any scheme, no matter how logical, but there will always 
be people how think slightly different and will look at the wrong place 
first. Sometimes I simply overlook the program when looking in submenu, and 
then try hard to find it elsewhere.

> if you have to search through a logically sorted list, then maybe its not
> so logically sorted.  
Or it means that people just don't think logically.

> the more i think about it, searching for an app in a 
> menu is just a bandaid for a bad design. if the menu is always unorganized
> and hard to use, users will use the search widget as a crutch for
> somethign that could be easier and more efficient to perform if designed
> correctly.  at what point will the user stop using the search and go
> through the menu and find the location in the menus? the search isnt going
> to teach them where it is, its just going to provide a shortcut which
> involves more effort.

That's why suggested to just highlight the submenus where the matches are in. 
Maybe you missed that part of the thread while it was discussed on 
kde-core-devel.
Maybe I should repeat the relevant links here:
  http://fred.hexbox.de/kde_patches/kmenu-search-1.png
  http://fred.hexbox.de/kde_patches/kmenu-search-2.png
  http://fred.hexbox.de/kde_patches/kmenu-search-3.png
  http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=111510112715682&w=2

> so lets think about the 20/80 rule: 20% of the apps are used 80% of the
> time.  we now have a user using a search app to open a handful of apps for
> most of the time instead of navigating to a learnable position in the
> menu.  with a search implementation it almost makes me want to think "why
> do we need menus at all then" but of course this is an extremity

For this 20% or less you have the Recently used applications section and you 
have the kicker icons already. The section "All applications" in the kmenu is 
for.. you guessed it.

The problem with the kicker icons is that you have to put it there manually, 
but then you probably won't forget about them. The recently used section is 
popuplated automatically, but the drawback is you can't depend on it, because 
items come and go.

> i can understand how a user has an app they havnt or rarely use often and
> might not know how its categorized (again the organizational point but
> well continue..) and wants to search only for apps in the menu.  something
> like the previous suggestion where the App Search was out of context of
> the actual menu, organized with the "Run Command" option would be feasible
> and more useful.  its not a task performed on a regular basis and its a
> task itself (_searching and finding the app_ not just running it through a
> search) so it can be more robust and justify its existance for taking up
> space.

But as you say yourself the user should learn where the program is located in 
the k-menu, and the best place to show this is the kmenu itself.
And if the search line provides the basic features of the current minicli, 
then it will probably be acceptable to have a search line in the menu.

> so how about we fix the menus?
No idea how. You tell me. When looking at it and thinking about it, it looks 
rather locgical. But sometimes typing is faster than thinking.

Fred

-- 
Fred Schaettgen
Sch@ttgen.net
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