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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Show/Hide vs Checkbox
From:       Aaron Seigo <aseigo () kde ! org>
Date:       2005-03-30 20:29:15
Message-ID: 200503302029.18971.aseigo () kde ! org
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On March 30, 2005 20:12, Diego Moya wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:50:59 -0700, Aaron Seigo <aseigo@kde.org> wrote:
> > On March 30, 2005 19:34, Diego Moya wrote:
> > > Do users know that in menus there are only actions?
> >
> > generally they don't need to know these details consciously. if they do
> > need to know these things, something is wrong.
>
> You're 100% right.
>
> And then why should users know that the text in the menu label means
> an action that is going to happen when clicked?

they don't have to. and that's the entire point.

when there is a checkbox the user has to realize that the checkbox represents 
the current state of the menu entry and then deduce what selecting that entry 
again will result in.

with action based "Show/Hide" menu entries the user simply reads the entry and 
it says what will happen. they don't have to figure anything out, it's all 
spelled out for them.

action based menus do not require the user to know anything more than how to 
open a menu and select a given item. state based menus (e.g. with checkboxes) 
requires the user to understand the implied semantics of the menu entry and 
figure out based on that what will happen when the entry is selected.

you are kind of confusing what we have to know when designing for usability 
(e.g. menus should have actions) and what users have to know to use a usable 
interface (e.g. "this will show offline users")

> > i suggest you go around and present a menu and a button to users and ask
> > them if they are different.
>
> Go ask HCI designers. :-) In all the books that I've read, menu items
> follow similar guidelines as buttons (and state menus are
> discouraged).

of course they follow similar (though not identical) guidelines to buttons. 
the question was how they are perceived by users, though. menus are not 
buttons. they are menus. they are not perceived as being the same, nor are 
they used in the same way. therefore they do not follow the exact same set of 
guidelines.

> So do you think that all menu entries should be actions, or not? (I
> think they should, but a toggle menu with a checkbox and no verbs is
> not that bad - sometimes).

as a general rule, yes menu entries should be actions. only when it's worse to 
be an action should they not be ;) 

the Settings -> Toolbars menu is a good example where showing state is better 
than action based settings (because you can have many items in there and 
Show/Hide starts to break down visually). personally, i take this as a bit of 
a hint that we're using the wrong type of interface to control this ... 
*shrug*

> > and just to be completely pedantic about it, we (and Windows for that
> > matter) do have buttons that change their labels rather effectively:
> > "Options >>" ...
>
> Does the label show state in that case?

yes, actually, it does... the arrows show whether it will show or hide the 
additional UI.

> *Might* the label be thought as describing the application's state?

indeed.

> > Society is Geometric
>
> Huh? I though it was topologic! :-)

heh.. =)

-- 
Aaron J. Seigo
Society is Geometric

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