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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: KDE improvement suggestions
From:       Uno Engborg <uno () webworks ! se>
Date:       2005-02-25 20:18:18
Message-ID: 421F880A.20206 () webworks ! se
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Esben Mose Hansen wrote:

>On Friday 2005-02-25 14:50, Uno Engborg wrote:
>  
>
>>Esben Mose Hansen wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>I would be sad to see the current RMB behavior go --- it's fast and feels
>>>natural. And your proposal fails the "discoverability test". Another
>>>problem is that "move" and "copy" are almost equally used, so there is no
>>>good default.
>>>      
>>>
>>Actually, the current state fails the discoverability test as well, you
>>can't find "link here" anywhere.
>>    
>>
>
>That sentence doesn't make sense. It is as discoverable as it going to get 
>with the current drag&drop mechanism. It is just as discoverable as copy, 
>move, ie, when you drop a file, it will be in the menu.
>  
>
No, you can perform the move and copy operations from the edit menu by 
doing cut and
paste. There is no similar way to do a link.

>  
>
>>I would like the menu to go away altogether, and drag should just do the
>>most frequent operation, i.e. move.The other operations should be
>>possible from edit menu, and perhaps the standard file rmb context menu.
>>    
>>
>
>Is move the most frequent operation? It depends on what you are doing, of 
>course. If you are dragging files to a removable harddisk/usb key, then copy 
>would be the norm (I guess). 
>
>For this reason alone, your proposal is flawed.
>  
>
Moving files between different physical media is a totally different issue.

Even if my statistics for move being the most frequent selection would 
be wrong, wich I very much doubt,
since I feel that KDE works much better since the order of the drag&drop 
menu changed a while ago.
it is the only choise that makes sense if you see it from a desktop 
methaphor point of view.

>  
>
>>The idea get the rmb context menu on mouse up instead of mouse down was
>>to make it  possible
>>for old KDE users to at least be able to have a similar behavior as they
>>have today, even if admittedly
>>at a somewhat less discoverable position.
>>    
>>
>
>I still think this is an bad idea. I see no gain, and a lot of inconsistencies 
>stemming from the right button drag.
>
As far as I'm concerned, I don't need the drag&drop menu on any mouse 
button.
But if we should have it, it is probably a better idea to have it on the 
right button than the
left. Then at least all the users comming to KDE from that other DE that 
90% of all people
tend to use would feel at home.  I don't hear many people complaining 
that it creates
inconsistencies in MS-windows,  could you elaborate on what  problems would
happen in KDE?

> 
>
>  
>
>
>I just tried it. It was as simple as could be hoped for
>
>1. shift click first item
>2. shift click  last item
>2. shift click (if you want) and drag.
>3. before drop, pressed the shift key (or ctrl key to copy)
>4. drop
>
>Can't be much simpler, can it?
>  
>
Congratulations you have the life ahead of you :-)

>>What I meant when I said that newbies have more problems with the
>>current state than
>>experienced users is that they don't know how to use modifier keys to
>>expand selections.
>>    
>>
>
>Which is silly, because newbies usually don't use drag&drop at all. It just 
>isn't discoverable, and I can't see any way to make it so.
>  
>
It depends. If you never have seen the desktop methaphor in action that 
is probably true.
However if they haven't, we don't give them enough help to get them 
started at all.  To help this
group of users you need some kind of first time user introduction that 
learns them to handle
the mouse and such. The first Macs came with such tutorials.

Users that have seen some desktop DE or only use it occationally will 
know how to drag and drop.
Various modifier keys are much harder to remember though.

>  
>
>>That way they will have to answer the menu once for each file they move.
>>In the long run
>>this is very annoying.  I know people who have switched DE over this.
>>    
>>
>
>If they have, they are silly. Nobody forces them to use Konqueror under KDE. 
>Rather, I think they didn't like KDE for a number of reason, and switched to 
>something they liked better. (Gnome, I suppose, for newbies). Which is fine, 
>I always thought of Gnome as a more newbie friendly desktop :-D KDE is more a 
>power desktop. I see no problem with this.
>  
>

For one of them, I'm quite sure this was the reason.  He even offered me 
a symbolic
sum to fix it for him, which I did to his satisfaction for KDE 
3.longtimago.
Unfortunately for him I  have a company to run, so I had no time to 
support him as new
Linux versions and with them new KDE versions arrived.
Now he runs Gnome. So I guess he is silly;-)

>I think the next step forward would be friendly, passive popups that tells the 
>user about neat & new tricks.
>  
>
Perhaps we should ask the artists for a nicely designed paperclip 
graphics to go with it;-)
Seriously, that is a good idea as long as you can turn it off.

Regards
Uno Engborg

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