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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: KDE improvement suggestions
From:       Esben Mose Hansen <kde () mosehansen ! dk>
Date:       2005-02-25 15:15:46
Message-ID: 200502251613.26874.kde () mosehansen ! dk
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On Friday 2005-02-25 14:50, Uno Engborg wrote:
> Esben Mose Hansen wrote:
> >I would be sad to see the current RMB behavior go --- it's fast and feels
> >natural. And your proposal fails the "discoverability test". Another
> > problem is that "move" and "copy" are almost equally used, so there is no
> > good default.
>
> Actually, the current state fails the discoverability test as well, you
> can't find "link here" anywhere.

That sentence doesn't make sense. It is as discoverable as it going to get 
with the current drag&drop mechanism. It is just as discoverable as copy, 
move, ie, when you drop a file, it will be in the menu.

> I would like the menu to go away altogether, and drag should just do the
> most frequent operation, i.e. move.The other operations should be
> possible from edit menu, and perhaps the standard file rmb context menu.

Is move the most frequent operation? It depends on what you are doing, of 
course. If you are dragging files to a removable harddisk/usb key, then copy 
would be the norm (I guess). 

For this reason alone, your proposal is flawed.

>
> The idea get the rmb context menu on mouse up instead of mouse down was
> to make it  possible
> for old KDE users to at least be able to have a similar behavior as they
> have today, even if admittedly
> at a somewhat less discoverable position.

I still think this is an bad idea. I see no gain, and a lot of inconsistencies 
stemming from the right button drag. 

>
> In other words the system would mimic Windows, and be more similar to
> Mac and
> Gnome. As many new KDE users have prior experience from any of these
> systems that would in itself be an advantage apart from solving the main
> problem of breaking
> the users flow of work.

Similarity is only a valid argument when the change doesn't have any 
significant drawbacks, such as introducing inconsistencies.

>
> >You say the core of the problem is that user would be presented with the
> >dialog every time the drag, since they do not now the modifier keys. How
> >about simply adding these keys to the drag menu?
> >
> >* move (drag with shift key held)
> >* copy (drag with ctrl key held)
> >* link (drag with alt key held)
> >
> >Perhaps a better wording/design, but you get the idea. Then the user would
> >know about the modifier keys, and would then be able to both move and copy
> >without a menu.
>
> Better wording never hurts, though I'm not sure yours is better, as it
> leavs out the direction of the operation. Anyway  it doesn't fix the
> problem as the modifier keys for avoiding the menu is very hard to use
> as ctrl and shift also are used to expand selections.  You need to do
> quite intricate finger gymastics to do it. E.g. try to expand a
> selection and then use the shift key to avoid the menu and you see what
> I mean.  I would say that it would be faster to cope with the menu
> popping up than trying to avoid it popping up using modifiers.

I just tried it. It was as simple as could be hoped for

1. shift click first item
2. shift click  last item
2. shift click (if you want) and drag.
3. before drop, pressed the shift key (or ctrl key to copy)
4. drop

Can't be much simpler, can it?

>
> What I meant when I said that newbies have more problems with the
> current state than
> experienced users is that they don't know how to use modifier keys to
> expand selections.

Which is silly, because newbies usually don't use drag&drop at all. It just 
isn't discoverable, and I can't see any way to make it so.

> That way they will have to answer the menu once for each file they move.
> In the long run
> this is very annoying.  I know people who have switched DE over this.

If they have, they are silly. Nobody forces them to use Konqueror under KDE. 
Rather, I think they didn't like KDE for a number of reason, and switched to 
something they liked better. (Gnome, I suppose, for newbies). Which is fine, 
I always thought of Gnome as a more newbie friendly desktop :-D KDE is more a 
power desktop. I see no problem with this.

Also, this is why I ask for a way to make it more obvious that all they have 
to do is press shift before dropping for move and ctrl for copy. The keys are 
already listed in the menu. Hard to get more obvious than that in a menu.

I think the next step forward would be friendly, passive popups that tells the 
user about neat & new tricks. 

-- 
regards. Esben
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