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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Drag and Drop Up-One-Level
From:       Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri <gustavo () gsbarbieri ! sytes ! net>
Date:       2004-05-10 22:57:02
Message-ID: 200405102014.14787.gustavo () gsbarbieri ! sytes ! net
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Em Saturday 08 May 2004 14:44, Jamethiel Knorth escreveu:
> >From: Stian Søiland <stian@soiland.no>
> >Date: Sat, 8 May 2004 19:23:48 +0200
> >
> >On 2004-05-07 21:44:01, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri wrote:
> > > > (therefor, if you have created two dirs, with hard-linked
> > > > files, it could be possible to see that files in both dirs are
> > > > hardlinked - and therefore that they MIGHT be the same files -
> >
> >avoiding
> >
> > > > editing a file that should have been a copy)
> > >
> > > ???
> >
> >Ok, I'll try to make it clearer. Just like ls -l prints the reference
> >count, files that have several names should have that indicated in some
> >way:
> >
> >   Dir 1:
> >
> >   [    ] file1.txt
> >   [   2] file2.txt
> >   [    ] file3.txt
> >
> >
> >   Dir 2:
> >
> >   [    ] file1.txt
> >   [   2] file2.txt
> >   [    ] file4.txt
> >   [   2] file5.txt
> >
> >[   ] should be thought of as the normal TXT icon. For files that are
> >hard linked, the reference count could be superimposed onto the icon.
> >This indicates that this file doesn't only appear in this directory.
>
> You're right there should be some indication, but I don't think it needs
> that much prominence. I would prefer to have it in the tooltip, the
> properties page, and the status bar. The fact is, usually it doesn't
> matter.

Yes. Just put in the tooltip: "This file has <X> other names (hard links)" or 
something like that. I'm not a natural english speaker, so I'm not that good 
with short & descriptive names.


> >This could be important if you need 700 MB diskspace, and you try to
> >delete your redhat73.iso - but nothing happens since it's also hard
> >linked somewhere else. (There's no easy way to backreference those other
> >file names without searching the whole volume. That could be an option
> >from the "Preferences"-dialog, though.)
>
> A possibility to help avoid this would be to have a warning dialog when you
> delete only one of a set of linked files. Of course, leave in an option to
> never show it again. It could possibly even have the option to remove those
> files as well.

Good idea. Just need a good message:

"This is just a name for the file. This file have <X> names more, it will be 
deleted just when there's no more names left."


Again, a better message please :D


> >Another issue is when a skilled user (but not yet an expert user) is
> >learning about this hard linking-stuff, and he needs to know the
> >difference between copying and linking.
> >
> >If he drags a file somewhere with "linking" - and then afterwards both
> >files changes icon - it would be easier for him to understand that what
> >he did affected both files, and that he hasn't created a symbolic link.
> >
> >One issue is if displaying the number is really useful. Most files with
> >more than 1 link (except directories) would have 2 links. More links are
> >less common. User's might expect that the two files are different, that
> >one is #1 and the other #2, specially when only one of them are present.
> >They would then search all over for #1 with no luck.
> >
> >Some other nice icon could of course be used in the superimposing. I
> >don't know what would be appropriate. It would be very important to
> >differenciate it from a symbolic link. If people mess up hardlinks and
> >symbolic links, bad things could happen.
>
> I think that a chain is often used for linking, and that could be placed in
> the corner or the icon, just as with linked frames in Konqueror. That
> wouldn't be ugly either. Definitely, I am opposed to the number, though.
> Type in icons is bad.

sure.


> >Symbolic links are in many ways 'weaker' - you cannot delete the
> >original file and keep the linked version. You cannot move around on the
> >original file - or the linked one if it's relative. On the other hand -
> >symbolic links work crossdevice, so you could have a symlink to a shared
> >resource from your home directory.
> >
> >(in my opinion, symbolic links are best for directories, hard links for
> >files. Hard linked directories are usually not possible without deep
> >hacking.)
> >
> > > AND, konqueror as a File Manager should provide every possible way to
> >
> >manage
> >
> > > files. If the problem is instructing users, put it in the docs, KTips
> >
> >and
> >
> > > tooltips.
> > > 	It's really strange you can zip, encrypt and do thousand of
> > > non-file-management stuff using konqueror but cannot create a simple
> > > hardlink.
> >
> >I agree that it should be possible to create hardlinks - as an option.
> >Maybe it needs to be called something else since most common users don't
> >understand that ALL file names are links to the inode - that again have
> >the metadata and links to the actual file contents. People feel that
> >when they save a file in a directory - that's where it IS.
> >
> >Maybe "Add another filename (hardlink)" or something like that?
>
> That's just too long for that little menu, as are most good names. Some
> things use Clone for creating pairs, but that implies that they do not
> remain linked.

Clone implies that the size is duplicated too.


> Would it be possible to sort of drop a help button just anywhere? Like,
> have the menu have a question mark right-aligned after the Hardlink option,
> where clicking on the question-mark shows What's This? help without closing
> the menu?

Maybe a "First time" option? The first time the user use that it's present 
with a message. But since it's not dangerous (will not cause data lost), it 
can be avoided, eliminating clutter.


> Meh, not a good solution, just tossing ideas around.

/me too.

-- 
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
---------------------------------------
Engenharia de Computacao 2001 - UNICAMP
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