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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Tabbed browsing vs taskbar grouping; a proposal.
From:       "Jamethiel Knorth" <jamethknorth () hotmail ! com>
Date:       2004-03-01 17:37:46
Message-ID: BAY7-F35nUF0Qe7XTIx00013f48 () hotmail ! com
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>From: Maurizio Colucci <seguso.forever@tin.it>
>Reply-To: KDE Usability Project <kde-usability@kde.org>
>
>On Sunday 29 February 2004 19:34, Jamethiel Knorth wrote:
> > >From: Maurizio Colucci <seguso.forever@tin.it>
[snip]
> > >1) BAD ASPECT OF OPENING DIRECTORIES IN TABS
> > >=========================================
> > >
> > >The problem of opening directories in tabs instead of new windows is
> > >obvious:
> > >the full pathname doesn't fit in the tab. So, when you want to find a
> > >particular dir, you end up pressing all tabs sequentially, until you 
>find
> > >it.
> > >No sane person would do that. :-) So, as far as I understand, nobody 
>would
> > >ever choose to open a new directory in a new tab (unless his panel does
> > > not offer taskbar grouping).
> > >
> > >Notice this problem is not so dramatic when browsing the web: the page
> > >titles
> > >are rarely very long, and they often have a different icon. The problem 
>is
> > >only serious when browsing the disk.
> >
> > This would be fairly well solved if tabs displayed the last portion of 
>the
> > path, rather than the first, as that is usually what you need to know
> > anyway.
>
>Personally, this is not how my brain works. I quickly glance at the 
>beginning
>aan the end of the path. I would feel lost with only the end.
>
>I found quite clever the way kde shortens bookmarks:
>
>/usr/local/sds......dds/ad/

Even that would be a slight improvement. Currently, it only truncates for 
me. So, currently, I end up with about half my tabs being identical, 
'file:/home/jamethiel/...', because it simply does not have enough space in 
the tabs. If it at least cut it out in the middle, I could figure out what 
it was.

>But it's not enough IMHO...
>
> > Also, tabs should show the entire path, as a tooltip over the normal
> > wording, when hovering over them, although that's only a little help.
>
>Personally , I think this is not enough, as I said before...

I know it isn't everything, but I should not that I am not thinking of it as 
a delayed occurrence, as with a tooltip. The only case where I have seen it 
is on tree-views of files which do not fit into the column. The instant the 
mouse is over one that doesn't fit, it is extended over the barrier by 
putting it into a tooltip-like popup. Currently, they take a second to 
appear, and I see no reason for that.

And, just because it isn't enough doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

> > >2) BAD ASPECT OF OPENING DIRECTORIES IN A NEW WINDOW
> > >=================================================
> > >
> > >So what? Why don't I simply open the directory in a new window, and use
> > >taskbar grouping?
> > >
> > >This would solve problem 1: when you click on the taskbar you see the 
>list
> > >of
> > >all directories, with the full name. But there is another problem: 
>every
> > >time
> > >you click on the taskbar you are forced to choose which of the 5 
>konqueror
> > >windows you want. But I almost always need one!
> > >
> > >(For example, when I am managing downloads I only need
> > >/usr/local/downloads,
> > >when I am programming XXX I only need ~/src/XXX, etc. It is bad I need 
>to
> > >choose every time.)
> > >
> > >Therefore, I would like a click on the taskbar to send me to the MOST
> > >RECENT
> > >konqueror window, not prompt me with a choice each time.
> >
> > This would drive me nuts, as I usually do NOT want the most recent 
>window.
>
>Ok, but if there was a small button to bring you to the most recent app? 
>You
>could simply not use it. It might also be disabled by default. Since, after
>all, it's not good for beginners.

I'm not sure about that. Every other instance with a small button on a large 
one (back, forward, up in Konqueror, some combo-box buttons) the small 
button extends a list and the large one does the default action on the list 
that was extended. What you are proposing is extremely irregular behavior 
and shouldn't be included in the default install, even as an option.

> > Most of the times I have many windows open, I just minimized one and 
>want
> > to open a different one.
>
>??? You could continue to do so.

Yes, and there would be a delay before the list popped up, or I would have 
to hit only a certain portion of the button, not all of it. Note that, with 
the proposal of the smaller button for the recent app, this would not be 
quite so irritating.

> > I am not sure if I can think of a time when I have
> > ever wanted the most recent window re-opened, although I'm sure it has
> > happened once or twice.
> >
> > >Tabbed browsing does not have this problem. because we have a two 
>phases
> > >choice: the first click, on the taskbar, sends you to to the most 
>recent
> > >konqueror directory; then, IF you don't like it, you can change the dir
> > >with
> > >a second click (this time on the tab).
> >
> > The current method has a two-phase system, unlike what you are 
>suggesting.
>
>Absolutely not. See below.
>
> > Currently, you click, it shows you a list, and you pick what you want.
>
>No. You are ignoring the problem of tabs.

There is no problem of tabs, that is completely unrelated. I am not talking 
about using tabs, I am talking about using windows. If I am using tabs, that 
is a different issue.

> > Your
> > solution is that if you click, it gives you the most recent directory, 
>and
> > if that isn't what you wanted, you need to minimize,
>
>No, you don't need to minimize.

So, I should just leave the window open, the one I wanted closed? That's 
pointless.

> > that window, go back
> > to the menu-bar, click and hold,
>
>No, you had better read my proposal better.
>
> > and then get what you wanted. So, rather
> > than a solid two-stage operation, you are proposing a one-or-four stage
> > operation.
>
>You did not understand at all!
>
>CURRENT BEHAVIOR (flawed):
>
>1) Click: the konq windows shows up. 2) IF I don't like it (which happens
>rarely for me), I have to choose another tab. WHICH I CAN'T, because I 
>don't
>see the whole names. So the current behavior is NOT a two-phase behavior, 
>as
>you say. It is a ZERO phase, because it does not work at all. It is flawed.

Why are you bitching about the tabs when discussing the behavior on the 
taskbar? Don't mix your topics. The purpose here is not to solve your one 
specific problem, but to improve the behavior of the taskbar. The taskbar 
behavior is two phase, if you are switching pages via the taskbar. If you 
are switching via the tab bar, who cares what the taskbar behavior is?

>PROPOSED BEHAVIOR:
>
>1) click: the konq windows shows up. 2) If you don't like it, you click on 
>the
>taskbar button, and it shows the full list of konq windows. 3) You click 
>the
>right one.

Okay, re-reading your proposal, I'm still right. You just propose that I 
leave a spare window open in the background rather than minimizing it. 
That's just silly. I wanted the window closed, and now its open. To get to 
the state I was aiming for, I need to close it again. 4 steps.

>This requires three clicks in the worst case. But  this is better than the
>current NOTHING.

Current NOTHING? What can you not do in the current system? Not easily, 
maybe, but NOTHING? What are you talking about?

> > [snip]
> >
> > >THE PROPOSED SOLUTION
> > >=====================
> > >
> > >We could enhance the kicker like this:
> > >
> > >* single click: go to the most recently used konq window
> > >
> > >* click and hold: popup the list of all open konq windows (the current
> > >behaviour)
> > >
> > >Even better, we could do like the back button in mozilla: we could 
>split
> > >each
> > >taskbar button in two: one big, with the app icon, one small, with the
> > >arrow
> > >pointing downwards. If you click the big one, you go to the most recent
> > >konq
> > >window. If you click the small one, the list of all open konq windows 
>pops
> > >up.
> >
> > I think this is better than the previous, and I do usually like the
> > little-arrow buttons, but I still do not think it is actually better 
>than
> > the current situation.
>
>So, how do you solve the problem of tabs not containing the full path?

As I said, switch the shortening so you can see the end of the path and have 
immediate tooltips on mouse-over which show the full path over the tabs 
itself. It's the best solution possible, as tabs just plain aren't big 
enough for the full path.

> > >This way we would provide the two-phase choice that is needed, and all
> > >would
> > >be solved.
> > >
> > >What about it?
> >
> > I think it's a bad idea. Your idea seems mostly focused on the way you 
>use
> > Konqueror, but this would apply to every application, and I don't think 
>it
> > would work so well for the other ones.
>
>I too believe this should not be the default. But not for the reason you 
>say.
>The reason is that the default layout should not be the quickest and more
>productive layout, but the simplest and more intuitive one.

Your solution is not more productive. It is more productive if you are using 
Konqueror to view several directories at a time and do not like using the 
tab bar to do so. For me, it would be less productive in every other 
instance, and I think that my productivity counts for a lot more when I'm 
using OpenOffice or GIMP, or something where I am, say, producing something.

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