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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: [PATCH] Re: Kicker bar maiming, take Two
From:       Simon Perreault <nomis80 () nomis80 ! org>
Date:       2004-01-05 17:10:20
Message-ID: 200401051210.20962.nomis80 () nomis80 ! org
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On January 5, 2004 02:22, Frans Englich wrote:
> Give me a reason. Why would the user would kaboodle when there is noatun,
> taking into account the functionality the user wants when using the KMenu.

It is not your job to choose for the user which application he will use and 
which he won't. If someone coded an application and integrated it into KDE, 
then that application must be available to users. Any solution which makes a 
useful feature unavailable is a bad solution. Making Kaboodle unavailable is 
a bad solution, unless of course it is removed from the CVS and moved into 
kdeextragear, for example. This has happened in the past, for example with 
KMidi. Maybe what you really want is to move Kaboodle to some other CVS 
project. But as long as Kaboodle is part of the main distribution, is 
maintained and is generally useful, then it must remain available to the 
user.

> The KMenu is too big with no reason!

This is a usability myth that comes around every week. Nothing is too big, 
nothing has too many features, and nothing has too many KCMs. ;) The only 
problem is organization. Maybe the menu is badly organized, and we can 
probably fix it. But chopping it to tiny bits is not an option.

> Sorry, if our decision regarding KDE should surround if people will get
> upset or code removed which people have put tears and bloods into, we are
> seriously screwed. If this is the argument to not remove it, KDE has not as
> primary goal to be a desktop but please developers. An aspect of the open
> source development model taken a little bit too far.

I don't understand your logic. We're talking usability here. If a feature 
turned on by default makes the desktop less usable, why not simply turn it 
off by default? There are tons of people who want this feature. You can't 
remove it, otherwise you will get chased by an angry mob with torches and 
pitchforks.

> You haven't in any way explained /why/ people use it(if), or given any
> indication to how many who uses it.

This is not an issue. You don't need to know that data to make a decision. You 
simply can't remove a feature. You can turn it off by default, but you can't 
remove it.

For the record, I do use it. I use it because I find it useful. "Hey, let's 
start XMMS... (clicks on K) Hey, it's right there! (clicks on icon in recent 
apps)".

> A: A (yet unknown) amount of users will miss the functionality.

At least one. And this is too many. A feature off by default and an inexistent 
feature have the same level of usability. The feature can be on by default if 
it does not lessen usability. The feature can't be removed if it already 
exists, because you can be sure it will be missed by some people.

> B: Usability will be improved.

Turning off a feature by default and removing it altogether have the same 
effect on usability. However, removing it causes people to scream.

> Regarding B, it is quite well established something has to be done about
> the overgrown KMenu and its complexity.

Totally. But removing parts of it is not a solution. People have thought about 
this issue before you did, remember. And this is the first idea that comes to 
mind: the menu is bigger, why not make it smaller by removing parts of it? 
Let's start by the less important parts!

As people used to say about Office: every person uses at most 20% of Office's 
features. So why not remove the bload and chop off the remaining 80%? Because 
that 20% is not the same as other people's 20%. Overall, all features are 
needed by some people.

> We KDE people complain about it
> frequently, practically all reviews since 3.0(don't remember about 2.x)
> mentions it and Relevantive's usability report mentions it too. To
> emphasize, no doubt there's a usability problem and something has to be
> done about it.

Yes. I propose moving more stuff in "Other XXX apps". It has been a large 
success for Red Hat, after they tweaked it better in RH9. It has been 
acclaimed in every review. And most important of all: it does not remove 
features.

> Now, tell me if A is the /most/ important or if it is B. This will not be a
> win-win decision, we will have to compromise. And we do that no matter
> which one we choose, we shall just try to choose one which has the smallest
> negative aspects.

The solution does not have to have negative aspects.

-- 
Simon Perreault <nomis80@nomis80.org> -- http://nomis80.org

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