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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Kicker bar maiming
From:       Michael Pye <mdpye () ntlworld ! com>
Date:       2003-12-21 17:10:49
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On Sunday 21 December 2003 15:55, Troels Tolstrup wrote:

> I don't think this is right.
>
> Yes, the distros can, and does to some extend, modify the defaults. And i
> think the kicker icons is probably the heaviest customized part too, but i
> generally think we should set a good example and try to provide the best
> set of defaults for as broad a range of users as possible.

I think distros are putting more and more effort in these areas, especially 
those who have now properly identified (non-developer) audiences. It's 
something I think is evolving. There was a time when it was all a distro 
could do to get everything to work, now they are applying more and more 
polish (and rightly so, as they can polish more specifically).

> Right now the largest user base is probably technical users, but i think
> the number of non tech users who is using kde is growing rapidly, and from
> my personal experience they have a few problems with stock kde, which are
> very easy (for me) to correct, but almost impossible for them. That is,
> they can correct it once they learn how to do it, but by that point they
> might know enough to not care anylonger.

I'm not saying these problems shouldn't be addressed, but perhaps not 
completely at the expense of the developers in the stock defaults. I 
personally don't think those non-tech uses should be using the stock KDE, 
they should be using their distribution's customised version which is 
targeted at them specifically.

> I think one issue is too many icons on kicker and the multi level kmenu. (i
> personally think the "more programs" is quite broken, and that it is a sign
> that the programs in question should perhaps not be shipped with kde)
> (note, this is not to say that said programs should be removed, but that
> they could maybe be moved to other modules or shipped separately like
> kde-extragear) Yes, i know that this is really a job for the distros, but
> they generally don't do that, and i can't see this change. (debian does it
> to some extend, but i think they are alone)

Hmm. In my experience distro KMenu's tend to be quite heavily customised as 
well. Not to the point of reorganising package installation, but certainly 
the menu content. Then again, I don't use *that* many different distros, but 
I do try to look around.

> Another issue is too many toolbar icons still, especially in koffice and
> konqueror. (a default konqueror has 16 icons in web mode, in my install i
> only kept the first 6 as i use those serveral orders of magnitude more than
> the rest) I also think the name of many toolbar icons are way too long,
> which makes having the name below or next to the icons useless.

This is a valid complaint for both tech and non-tech users, and one which I 
would like to help address. This is *not* what I was talking about above, 
because it isn't a case of dumbing down, more bringing back to the realms of 
sanity...

> Context menu issues has mostly been addressed already, and been improved
> quite a lot. (thanks Aaron)

I add my thanks here too.

> And finally, i think keramik is a bad default style. It is quite large and
> intrusive, which again helps promote the idea that kde is too cluttered.
> This is not that much of an issue, considering all the biggest distros
> changes the style to their own, but i still think something like plastik
> would be a better default. (i personally does like keramik, but i am not a
> first time user)

I think Plastik is a fantastic style. There are a few outstanding issues (at 
present there is no visible seperator between different menus and toolbars), 
but I find it a very visually appealing style which does not suffer from the 
aesthetic "loudness" which affects keramic.

> I personally don't think that KDE is cluttered, but i see a lot of new
> linux users prefer gnome because they think it looks less intemidating, and
> i think this fact is actually quite easy to resolve simply by tweaking the
> defaults.

I agree that we can move part way towards this, but I'm trying to bring a 
little perspective back to the "KDE must be shipped ready and optimised for 
complete and clueless novices" tack which seems to be popular recently. Just 
because the stock is not shipped like this does not mean that it cannot reach 
end users in an appropriate state through the work of the distros, each of 
which has a better idea of what this state is for their own users.

MP

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