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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Proposal: Replacing Toolbar Icons in KOffice
From:       James Richard Tyrer <tyrerj () acm ! org>
Date:       2003-12-04 1:23:24
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Henrique Pinto wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wednesday 03 December 2003 08:02, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> 
>> My point is that it shouldn't be by default.  The application should use CrystalSVG
>> icons only if the user has chosen that icon theme
> 
> 
> CrystalSVG is the default icon theme. For consistency, it should be used as fallback.

Wrong.  If you have chosen it (CrystalSVG) in the Control Center, then you ARE using it and
there IS NO fall back.  If you have chosen another icon theme, then why should you fall
back to CrystalSVG without checking 'hicolor' first.  Believe me it DOES NOT look good to
have all KDEClassic icons except for one or two CrystalSVG icons.  They totally look out of
place.

> KDEClassic is now a separate theme.

These icons are now in a different directory and have a different name.  But this does not
mean that they are not the same icons.  The remain the 'unthemed' icons with 24 bit color
depth.
> 
> 
>> Clearly, if an icon in the user's selected theme is not available, it should first
>> fall back to 'hicolor', and then the 'default.kde'.
> 
> 
> Why?

Because most (other than CrystalSVG) themed icons harmonize better with the unthemed icons.
> 
> Hicolor is not the default style, it is provided just for convenience in kdeartwork.

We are talking about the icons for applications.  Are they in KDEArtWork?

> Hicolor icons usually don't integrate well with crystal icons.

Absolutely correct.  And exactly what is it that you don't understand?  My whole point is
to prevent mixing CrystalSVG icons and KDEClassic icons.

> All KDE application should provide CrystalSVG icons - it is the default, and they
> should integrate well with the default settings of KDE.

Where does it say that?  Do you mean that they should provide ONLY CrystalSVG icons?

IIUC, what it says tis that KDE applications are permitted to provide CrystalSVG icons.

> It might be a good idea to require applications to provide hicolor icons for
> acessibility issues. For application shipped with KDE, these icons should go to
> kdeartwork, as it is not a good idea to force users to install icons of a non-default
> theme.
> 
Please note: hicolor is not a theme, it is the directory where the unthemed application
icons are installed.
> 
>> NOTE: in many cases 'hicolor' will be empty, but if there is an icon there it
>> 'hicolor' must be the send choice for an icon theme after the user selected theme.
> 
> I believe it should be configurable. Well, it is, I believe, at least it was in KDE
> 3.1, I haven't had the need to use that with KDE 3.2. But is not something the "joe
> user" can do easily.

It is most certainly something that "joe user" can do.  If it is done correctly, and he
does nothing, the gets whatever is set as default in the distribution.  If he selects
CrystalSVG, the gets CrystalSVG.  If he selects KDEClasic, he gets KDEClasic (aka unthemed
icons).  What are you missing here?

> Most users don't have hicolor installed, as kdeartwork seems not to be a very popular
> package (at least it is so here where I live). And the fallback theme should not be
> hardcoded to hicolor.

This is about applications NOT the KDE distribution.  And, please look into this so that
you understand it -- KDEArtwork does NOT contain any icons which are installed in the:
"hicolor" directory.
> 
>>>> The point is that the CrystalSVG icons should not replace the current KDEClasic
>>>> icons.
> 
> Current? KDE Classic is not the default style anymore.

NO, but it still exists.

> KDE applications should ship CrystalSVG icons.

LOOK!  You just don't get it, my CAT is not a DOG (just because they both have 4 paws). 
Saying that you shouldn't get CrystalSVG icons when you select KDEClasic does not mean 
that KDE applications should not include CrystalSVG icons.

Do you mean by saying that KDE applications should ship CrystalSVG icons that they should 
not also include unthemed icons?  How are the two related.
> 
> As I pointed out above, it might be a good idea, for acessibility purposes, to have a
> complete hicolor theme available in KDE, but it is much more important to have a
> complete default theme.

It is the CrystalSVG which is and remains incomplete.

>> I know nothing about the icons for specific applications being moved to KDEArtwork.
> 
> KDEArtwork contains complete icon themes.

It does NOT contain the icons for applications which are not part of the KDE package.

> Do you believe all apps should ship icons in CrystalSVG, Reinhardt, Korilla, Slick...

No, I think that all apps should continue to include unthemed icons (aka HiColor or 
KDEClasic).  And most specifically I don't think that the unthemed icons already in 
applications should be removed.

> For non-default themes, it is better to have the icons included in the icontheme,
> rather than in apps.

I really think that the only possibility for applications is to have the icons included 
with the application except for the standard "actions" which are included with KDE.
> 
>>> 3) crystalsvg is the default icon theme in KDE-3.2.
>> 
>> I want to make this quite clear that I am not in any way objecting to the existence
>> of the CrystalSVG icon theme.  What I am objecting to is being forced to use them.
> 
> Possibilities:
> 
> 1) Use a complete icon set, you won't see any icon that is not part of that theme;

I have no idea what that means.  How can you have a "complete icon set" if the unthemed 
icons are REMOVED from applications?

> 2) Use Gnome, Windows, MacOS, BeOS, Xfce. They don't ship CrystalSVG as default icon
> theme.

Exactly what is it that you don't understand.  This is not about "shipping" CrystalSVG 
icons; it is about the failure to "ship" the unthemed icons.  How does it improve anything 
to fail to "ship" the unthemed icons?

So, I will try to explain this.  And, again, I remind you that I am talking about 
applications.  There should be no problem with the KDE package (except for Bug #68625)3 
unless there are themed icons which install in: "$KDEDIR/share/apps/<app-name>/pics/". 
But, that is a separate question.

Test case:

My application installs icons according to the guidelines.  There are unthemed icons (aka 
KDEClasic) which are installed in: "hicolor" and there are CrystalSVG icons which are 
installed in: "crystalsvg".

The Icon Loader search order is:

	User Selected Theme
	HiColor
	Default Theme
	Other Themes

IF the user selects: CrystalSVG, then he gets CrystalSVG icons.

If the user selects: KDEClasic, then he gets KDEClasic icons.

Do you have a better system or a counter example?

--
JRT

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