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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: Fwd: [Bug 59940] New: Adoption of
From:       "Aaron J. Seigo" <aseigo () olympusproject ! org>
Date:       2003-06-26 4:08:44
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On Wednesday 25 June 2003 06:51, Keunwoo Lee wrote:
> http://keunwoo.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/001/poll_center.htm
> http://keunwoo.freepolls.com/cgi-bin/polls/002/poll_center.htm

self selecting polls that are posted to selected lists/web sites are not 
useful. =/ kde-look.org is not a valid sample group, nor is this list.

random users would be.

> http://www.kde-look.org/poll/index.php?poll=10

this demonstrates nicely what i just said.

> I think it's interesting that even defenders of Keramik say that they
> don't use it and don't find it usable.  It seems virtually everyone I talk
> to or email about KDE turns off Keramik.

who are these people you talk to? what demographic? what skill level? what are 
their personal asthetics? why do they switch to something else? do they tend 
to stick with their alternative "forever"? etc, etc, etc... 

if you ever wonder why the term "anecdotal evidence" got such a bad rep, this 
is why.

> Is there anyone here who will 
> defend Keramik *and* who uses it daily?

i often use it for great stretches of time. what's your point?

> I don't think anyone's been saying Keramik is "boring", just that it's too
> visually heavy and distracting, and it's not very refined (e.g., the tab
> widget looks pretty bad).  Even Keramik's defenders think Keramik is
> deeply flawed, 

i could point to you ~4000 deep flaws in KDE (bugs.kde.org, of course ;) but 
we fix them rather than throw out the software. the problems in the widget 
style are being worked on... refinement is easy enough if the basic concept 
isn't completely flawed. i could point to a ton of flaws in virtually every 
other style suggested in this thread, btw....

> Also, if Keramik needs to be refined before it's adequately usable, then
> its adoption as the default style was premature.

even if this is true, it's impossible to rewind time. we live in a universe 
with only one gearing for time, which is forward in first gear.

> It should be retired in 
> favor of a more usable style until those refinements occur.

and cause all sorts of other issues...  switching to another style then back 
again would be silly. switching style at all is a difficult thing and not 
easy to do due to: screenshots in documentation and websites, pictures in 
company/corporate literature, users who are used to it being a certain way, 
projecting a flaky image ... 

worst yet, if we switch to another style you may be happy but we'll end up 
with a different set of disgruntleds. been there, done that.

> > Is this actually being considered?
>
> If Waldo's opinion is typical of the core development team, then it's just
> "mere users" like me who are agitating to get it changed.  So, no, it's
> not "actually being considered" by developers.  The reason I'm continuing
> to be a squeaky wheel about this is that I am hoping that, eventually,
> this might change.  (Maybe in time for KDE 4?)

ok, this is where i'm going to put my foot down on this thread. if you don't 
have your asbestos suit on, stop reading right here.

1) Waldo puts more effort in for users than you or  99.9% of the people on 
this list do. I include myself in that 99.9%.

2) Your generalization of both Waldo and the "core team" are wildly off base 
w/regards to how things actually happen. I resent that and will not stand for 
what amounts to baseless personal accusations on this list. It is not the 
place for it. I can suggest alternative locations, if you wish

3) If you really want to create change, extending this thread on this list is 
not the way to do it. In fact, you're just wasting all of our time doing so. 
The real way is to measure the actual usability of Keramik and the other 
styles, get them all fixed, pick one that is in the top of the heap due to 
its fundamental design concepts... the last two things can pretty much only 
be done by the KDE Artists because not only do they use their typing time to 
write code and create images, they have the skills to do so. this pretty much 
limits any non-artists to doing the first thing: measuring usability. and by 
measure i don't mean best-guess or cuz-my-friends-and-i-think-so assessments, 
but something that can be relied upon.

if you only wish to share your personal feelings about the way things look in 
your opinion, go to a user's chat list, kde-look.org, IRC, whatever... this 
is a place we're (supposedly) trying to get work done in...

btw, has anyone even mentioned the fact that KDE has two default styles? 
probably not; informed lot.

- -- 
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

KDE: The 'K' is for 'kick ass'
http://www.kde.org       http://promo.kde.org/3.1/feature_guide.php
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