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List:       kde-usability
Subject:    Re: BeOS and KDE compared: screenshots of trash and file context menu
From:       Uno Engborg <uno () webworks ! se>
Date:       2003-01-28 2:30:35
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On Monday 27 January 2003 23.49, Max Howell wrote:
> > That specific path would be manipulating the filename text directly.
> > Or users could still use "Rename" from the "Edit" menu.
> > I don't think we need four different ways to rename a file.
>
> The problem would be that clicking the text to rename is
> hidden-functionality in that usually you would do this with a menu (context
> or otherwise) so a user would expect to use a menu to accomplish this. I
> know 60% of Windows users just click on the text twice (slowly!), I do also
> when I use Windows. Personally I find it a useful and logical functionality
> - but it's still "hidden" and thus you need it in the menu. But therefore,
> as you say, why redundantly replicate it in the context menu and the main
> menu? Personally, I expect to be able to manipulate elements of that file
> from the context menu, including being able to rename it.
>
> > I hold Linux courses now and then, usually with KDE as GUI. So  I have
> > watched quite a lot of people trying to rename files in KDE. If they
> > haven't found out how to disable single click, they almost always open
> > files by mistake as they try to manipulate the filename directly.
>
> Which is a problem that should be possibly discussed. The default response
> shouldn't be changed just because Windows users would expect that kind of
> behaviour, however how often do people click the icon's text expecting
> execution? Personally I see the icon as the "object", and the text as its
> label 

You said it yourself the icon and the label is two things or else you would 
not need to describe it with an "and".in your sentence. I do think that most 
users see two nouns separated by an "and" as two things. E.g you and me 
represents two persons. Just like  an icon  _and_ its label represents two 
artefacts.


and feel that even people who've never used a computer before would
> probably see it the same way. 

I doubt that, most desktop icons somehow resemble objects that user use on a 
real desktop. Folders looks like folders taken from a file cabinet, and 
documents often look like some kind of paper with dogs-ears to make them even 
more grippable with the mouse. So I think it is very clear that the icon 
represents the document and the text is some kind of tag or label deskribing 
the name of that document.

By the  way,  how do you think Windows and MacOS users get to learn this 
behavior?  Many of my students at those courses of mine are not that old 
(usually around 20) and have never had any real job before with an employer 
that have paid any windows education for them. Still they have managed to 
learn this behavior by themselves or with the help from friends. So I don't  
think it can be all that hidden. Or are you somehow suggesting that KDE users 
have less capability to learn than Windows or MacOS users? I don't think this 
is the case. Besides manipulating objects directly with the mous is a very 
natural thing to do.



If this is true might it be acceptable to
> allow renaming of files in this way? Or would this just get annoying when
> you misclick?


I think the risk of misclicking is quite small. It doesn't seam to be a big 
problem in MacOS and Windows worlds. After all most users will try to hit the 
largest part of the icon/label combo. In most cases this will be the icon. 
Besides to make the text editable you would first have to select the 
icon/label combination and then click on the label. part.


Regards
Uno Engborg

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