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List:       kde-promo
Subject:    [kde-promo] Re: as far as theKompany is concerned
From:       Shawn Gordon <shawn () thekompany ! com>
Date:       2001-12-10 14:40:17
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again, I'm in digest mode so I'll respond inline.

At 02:15 AM 12/10/2001, you wrote:
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> 2. Re: Re: as far as theKompany is concerned (Christian Lavoie)
> 3. Re: Re: as far as theKompany is concerned (Navindra Umanee)
> 4. Re: Re: as far as theKompany is concerned (Carsten Pfeiffer)
> 5. Re: Re: as far as theKompany is concerned (Andreas Pour)
> 6. Re: Re: as far as theKompany is concerned (Christian Lavoie)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: Christian Lavoie <clavoi14@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Subject: Re: [kde-promo] Re: as far as theKompany is concerned
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 12:33:00 -0500
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> On Sunday 09 December 2001 10:58, Shawn Gordon wrote:
> > At 03:21 AM 12/9/2001, you wrote:
> 
> Ok, I'm a university student. McGill university, Montreal, Canada. Examples
> of usage of KDE apps will come form a university student's perspective.
> 
> Here's the example TheKompany application: Kivio. It's just an example, but
> let's base the conversation on some Random User using Kivio.
> 
> > > KIO slaves, kparts, and countless others. That is always my first reaction
> > > when I read "TheKompany rewrote X for Qt only!". I really read: "Yeah! I
> > > can't access my files on (say) FTP anymore! Hurray!"
> > 
> > ok, that still doesn't make any sense.  Hardly any apps are kparts, and
> > hardly any apps have KIO slaves - what is it specifically that you think
> > you are missing?  What does accessing files on FTP have to do with
> > anything?  We've always had multi-platform and closed applications, out of
> 
> Kivio is a kopart, used kio slaves like _every single kde application_, open
> a file dialog, type some URL, they all use kio slaves.

no really understanding you here, but other than the fact that Kivio runs 
in Koshell, there is nothing else to it, there is no kio_slave viewer for 
konqueror, embedding doesn't work - it is for all intents and purposes a 
stand alone application.

> Now, I keep most of my files on my http server, that way I can access them
> from the labs, from work, from a thousand other places. I just tried Kivio
> MP. Oops!
> 
> Moreover, I tried KivioMP demo on my work machine. Didn't work, I have Xft as
> static libs at work, not as shared libs. Oops! No source, no fix. (Ok, object
> files would have been enough, let's not get that picky about it)
> 
> I finally got it working at home (X is a wonderful thing). Ignores my KDE
> font settings. And theme. Oops! (ok, this is a Qt2 thing -- still that's what
> Random User will see)

At the moment we are dealing with being in the middle of the KDE2 to KDE3 
update - we are using Qt3 right now, but once KDE updates to KDE3 in the 
next few months, these issues go away.  As a customer, you get the source 
code to Kivio mp.

> > the first four products we released we had PowerPlant which was like a
> > linux distro, we had BlackAdder which was closed to a certain extant and
> > multi-platform through Qt, we had Kapital which was KDE only and closed, we
> > had KDE Studio Gold which was KDE and GPL.  Lot's of people really like
> > having the multi-platform capability.  You guys love KDE right?  You act
> > like KDE wasn't build using Qt or something, as though you hate Qt
> > applications.
> 
> I don't hate Qt applications. I just can't, as a user, believe that Kivio MP,
> compared to Kivio, lost so much of the functionality that I used. It's a
> major pain.

I'm still missing the major functionality issue, maybe a real time bulleted 
list would help.

> "You guys love KDE right?"
> 
> Yes, yes indeed I do. But some people (such as I, for example) don't care
> about multi-platform, and have lost some functionality I would have got by
> you using purely KDE.
> 
> It's a weird point-de-vue, but most people think you owe them something.
> Especially if they _pay_ for a product in a completely free OS (let's face
> it, the people complaining at you are extremely likely to have got the OS on
> the net rather than in a shiny box), they expect to have every single thing
> work like they expect it. Even if they expect something completely stupid,
> like KIO slaves in a purely multi-platform Qt application.
> 
> > > It's more than ideology, most often it's bad past experiences. It's called
> > > "get lots of users with a nice product, then change the product to give
> > > advantage to the company instead of the user as it was the case before".
> 
> Think of Kivio: KOffice integration, free; KivioMP: No integration, not free.

ok, please explain the integration that you are missing.  Kivio mp is free 
in the sense that there is no cost associated with it, but you can only get 
it when you buy the package with the stencils.

> > > Think about the AIM fiasco where you can't connect to the servers with
> > > open-source clients. Think Microsoft and protocols (kerberos?). Think the
> > > pains samba has to take to be able to talk with Windows machine. People
> > > are simply afraid you're gonna kick them in the pants the same way.
> > 
> > Again this doesn't wash.  I can think of one example of an application that
> > we've been selling that we might make Qt based that is currently KDE based,
> > this is Kapital.
> 
> People will complain when/if you do. They suddenly won't be able to export
> their .QIF files to some remote computer by sftp in the new version. Or
> whatever else you most obviously owe them to be able to do. It's all a
> perception game.
> 
> You'll have stolen Kapital from their KDE environment, be-littling the user
> experience (font won't match anymore, KActions and std shortcuts will go the
> way of the dodo, it most likely won't use the KDE Help Center, etc etc etc).
> Although I'd guess the backlash won't be half what it has been for Kivio.

we've had no backlash for Kivio, so I don't know what you mean here.  There 
is nothing about Kapital as a Qt app that means it can't work as a KDE app 
and use the KDE infrastructure.  I don't get why you think all these 
features will stop working if you have a Qt based app instead of 
KDE.  Kapital is a closed source application (actually it uses our new 
restricted source license now).

> > In all other cases we've been selling Qt based
> > applications and for a single price you get that application on all
> > supported platforms, so Windows and Linux and when Mac is available, you
> > get that too.  This would seem to be the opposite of what you are talking
> 
> It _IS_ the opposite of what I am talking about -- I wasn't talking
> specifically about TheKompany, but rather about a generic fear of commercial
> applications.
> 
> I said that most people have had bad experiences with other companies, and
> usually make the assumption that they're gonna have the same problems with
> TheKompany. You're fighting against established common wisdom that says:
> "Companies are interested in your paycheck, not in what you, as a user, want".
> 
> I did _not_ say "TheKompany is a bunch of bastards", I said "_most other_
> companies are and TheKompany gets included in the bunch because people don't
> take the time to judge every single one company out there on an individual
> basis". (or at least that's what I meant to say ;)
> 
> People aren't afraid of TheKompany. People are afraid of companies.
> 
> > about.  Their is huge advantage to the user, they are getting more, not
> > less, with what we are doing.
> 
> It is an advantage to _some_ people. Not everyone. Not for me, anyway.
> 
> > So given what I've just described, can you tell me why what we are doing is
> > bad?
> 
> Not much. As I said, there's very little wrong with what you do. There's a
> huge problem with the perception of what you do.
> 
> Kivio was a KOffice application. To the bone.
> KivioMP is not. At all.
> 
> That's all people see.
> 
> > > There's a huge psychological block to companies for the simple reason that
> > > most people have serious reasons to _hate_ quite a couple of companies.
> > > 
> > > I don't personally mind TheKompany doing whatever they feel like with
> > > their products (as long as older licenses are still honoured -- which
> > > they have been), but you _have_ to understand that it's extremely easy to
> > > equate "makeing a buck" to "f*ck my customers as long as they pay me".
> > > and to "even more f*ck to those who _don't_ pay me"; as this _is_ the
> > > overall feeling one gets by looking around at the software market,
> > > especially the big heavyweight monopoly.
> > > 
> > > (Again, I'm not saying this is the attitude of TheKompany, quite the
> > > opposite, so please don't take any of this personally)
> > > 
> > > Again, exagerating, but the Open Source community in general has this
> > > feeling about just about all attempts to make a buck out of Open Source.
> > > Just check out gnotices for the latest flames at Ximian for their
> > > connector thingamajig.
> > 
> > I thought what started this whole thing was that Ximian *wasn't* getting
> 
> Yeah, that's what started it, but it simply is that gnotices hadn't posted
> the story just yet, or it hadn't been there long enough for stupidity to kick
> in. Also remember that GNOME was mainly started by people complaining at Qt
> in the first place, they won't let go Ximian with a non-free plug-in without
> a flame or two.
> 
> See on gnotices, right now at least one comment talks about "selling their
> soul to the devil", and I'd swear they deleted a couple of comments calling
> them bastards (thought, on second thought, these might have been on slashdot).
> 
> > flammed over it and people were asking why they weren't and we were.  I
> > would say that we're a good example of *not* making a buck off of open
> > source.  We own our Qt license, and write our code using Qt, it seems if we
> > did more KDE based applications then that would be more of making a buck
> 
> Yeah, but the perception is that you're a KDE company.
> 
> "It's called Kompany, with a K, isn't it?"
> 
> "It's using Qt on linux, and KDE stuff in some of their apps and projects.
> It's a KDE company alright!"
> 
> > off of open source.  Sure we use things like GCC to build, but for the most
> > part all of our stuff is self contained and written by us, we don't sell
> > things that were built by others, and their are reasons for everything
> > we've done.  I've offered to write a paper for the dot giving better
> > explanations for everything, but they are not interested in publishing
> 
> Well, I for one would definately like to see that published. Navindra?
> 
> "I might not agree with your opinion, but I'll fight to the death for your
> right to express it" -- Voltaire
> 
> > it.  One of the strangest I get every once in a while is people insisting
> > that we stole, and didn't write Kivio and KDE Studio - this is just pure
> > BS, and is just one of the oddball rumors floating around about us.
> 
> You did write Kivio and KDE Studio. It's written in the about box, I'd guess
> -- but hardly anyone reads the documentation to _use_ the product, do you
> honestly believe people will read the about box? Kivio was part of KOffice.
> Technically, it still is. KivioMP is not. There you go, "they stole Kivio!"
> 
> Yours Truly,
> Christian Lavoie
> clavoi14@po-box.mcgill.ca
> http://www.christianlavoie.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 15:30:41 -0500
> From: Navindra Umanee <navindra@cs.mcgill.ca>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Cc: editors@kdenews.org
> Subject: Re: [kde-promo] Re: as far as theKompany is concerned
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> Christian Lavoie <clavoi14@po-box.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> > > things that were built by others, and their are reasons for everything
> > > we've done.  I've offered to write a paper for the dot giving better
> > > explanations for everything, but they are not interested in publishing
> > 
> > Well, I for one would definately like to see that published. Navindra?
> 
> Wow, we had previously agreed that Shawn would write something up, put
> it on his site, and then mail us when it was done for evaluation.
> Seems he never delivered.  Now what?

see, this is the problem, and why I stopped submitting things to the 
dot.  Here is what happens, I write something and submit it, it never shows 
up and no email is sent back, so I email a few times and am told it doesn't 
fit their "editorial guidelines", so I ask what those guidelines are and 
where I can read them, and I'm told that they aren't written down, you just 
need to do it like the other stuff on the dot, but this doesn't work 
because the other stuff on the dot isn't really like what I'm writing.

So in essence I was told to spend time writing it, and they may or may not 
publish it.  My experience has been that the dot won't even edit it, 
they'll just say "this isn't in the format we want".  Now I've worked for a 
number of magazines and have hundreds of published columns and this just 
isn't how it works in the publishing industry.  I do expect that if I 
submit something and it's a bit of kilter that I'll be responded to and 
informed of what might need to be changed, this is fine - what I don't 
expect is to submit something to a black hole and have it potentially 
disappear and this has been the case with the dot in the past.  If this 
policy has changed, or will at least change for this article, then I will 
be happy to write and submit, but in that case I expect it to show up 
somehow, either because it was perfect first time around or because the 
editors provided feedback to put it in line with what they want to publish.


> -N.
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 19:27:13 +0100
> From: Carsten Pfeiffer <carpdjih@sp.zrz.tu-berlin.de>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Subject: Re: [kde-promo] Re: as far as theKompany is concerned
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> On Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 12:33:00PM -0500, Christian Lavoie wrote:
> > 
> > You did write Kivio and KDE Studio. It's written in the about box, I'd 
> guess
> > -- but hardly anyone reads the documentation to _use_ the product, do you
> > honestly believe people will read the about box? Kivio was part of 
> KOffice.
> > Technically, it still is. KivioMP is not. There you go, "they stole Kivio!"
> 
> I think that rumor comes from the former Kivio, Queesio, which had nothing
> to do with theKompany, or that KDE Studio was developed before Shawn hired
> the developers, or Quanta, which was available before some of its
> developers approached Shawn. Or Aethera, which was developed as Magellan
> by the KAlliance guys, before it was forked. I think PyQt was available
> before Phil was hired, too.
> 
> So maybe people know that and mean that theKompany didn't develop those
> products from scratch, but hired developers of half-finished programs.

so is it a terrible thing that I paid to get these programs 
finished?  Queesio was dead (it was me that had it changed to a KDE 
application and moved to KOffice originally), Magellan is now dead (check 
their web site), KDE Studio was stalled, I had Max finish it up and release 
2.0 (and if I ever write my column on this, you'll understand the history 
better), and Quanta was stalled.  For PyQt we pretty much sponsor the web 
site, Phil continues to work on this pretty much on his own time.

> Cheers
> Carsten Pfeiffer
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 17:49:59 -0500
> From: Andreas Pour <pour@kde.org>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Subject: Re: [kde-promo] Re: as far as theKompany is concerned
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> Shawn Gordon wrote:
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> > I've offered to write a paper for the dot giving better
> > explanations for everything, but they are not interested in publishing
> > it.
> 
> That is just plain false.  You took the approach, which has never
> happened before, of asking if we would print a story without even
> submitting one.  In effect, asking for a blank check to write whatever
> you want on the dot.
> 
> Our response was, write something and we'll have a look at it.  What
> responsible news site would do anything different?

yes indeed - as I described above.  I'm commissioned to write things all 
the time, I had 3 requests just recently, and they say "Shawn, could you 
write something about X" and I do, and then we go through an editing 
process, which typically consists of fixing my grammer and adding periods.

What I did was say "Here is an idea for a story, would you be interested" - 
again, this is also how I deal with the magazines I work with.  They either 
say yes or no, they don't say "write it and we'll publish it if we like 
it".  In 12 years of writing for magazines I've never had that response.

> Ciao,
> 
> Dre
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> From: Christian Lavoie <clavoi14@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Subject: Re: [kde-promo] Re: as far as theKompany is concerned
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 18:53:22 -0500
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> On Sunday 09 December 2001 15:30, Navindra Umanee wrote:
> 
> > Wow, we had previously agreed that Shawn would write something up, put
> > it on his site, and then mail us when it was done for evaluation.
> > Seems he never delivered.  Now what?
> 
> Ok, sorry, that's not quite what I understood out of Shawn's words.
> 
> Mea culpa.
> 
> Christian Lavoie
> clavoi14@po-box.mcgill.ca
> http://www.christianlavoie.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> From: Craig Black <blackfarm@mountain.net>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 21:33:44 -0500
> Cc: kde@mail.kde.org
> Subject: [kde-promo] New KDE only user friendly Distro was released today
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> This was from there mailing list
> 
> hi all,
> 
> build 43, RL amethyst final, is now out!  it's on the
> ftp.redmondlinux.org server and is being uploaded to ibiblio.org.
> expect other mirrors to have it shortly.
> 
> an official announcement [press release] will come on monday.  grab
> while you can!
> 
> FAQ:
> 
> - what's new?
> 
> * moved Glide, simgear devel rpms to games/drpms
> * fixed compilercache
> * updated xine to 0.9.4
> * upgraded XFree86, mga support
> * added bt878 [109e0878] to hwprobe data
> * upgraded libxml to 2.4.11, added libxslt
> * added nokia 445 pro
> * upgraded kde to 2.2.2
> * upgraded kernel to 2.2.12-ac6
> * added win4lin support to kernel
> * upgraded libtool to 1.4.2
> * upgraded qtella to 0.3.1
> * upgraded xine to 0.9.6
> * added asf/asx support
> * added konqsu to go menu, my linux system context menu
> * upgraded qtella to 0.3.2
> * changed default xine audio to OSS
> 
> FIXED AND VERIFIED:
> - kdesu koncd in my linux system cdrw context menu
> - [kdelibs] application/ogg -> audio/ogg
> - [kdelibs] add keys icons
> - verify xmms w/ ogg
> - kautorun plays audio cd's? [remove kscd autolaunch from kautorun]
> - add alldomains icons
> - add control panel icons
> - right click cd -> rip audio to ogg vorbis
> - new xine w/ DVD
> - [mozilla] mozilla 0.96?
> - add lwm
> - [kdebase] add kdesu konq file manager icon
> - added better kpackage rpm installation support
> - fixed rlizard/lwm
> - update boot floppy
> - removed feedback link from mozilla start page
> - [XFree86] tdfx_dri.so in XFree86?
> - acpi=off
> - moved education, office, server rpms to cd 4
> - [kdeutils, koffice] text/plain defaults to kedit, not kword
> - fixed dvdnav
> 
> - when do cd's ship?
> 
> starting monday.
> 
> - will i be able to upgrade my current beta/rc version to final via
> RLupdate?
> 
> yes, until dec 31 2001.
> 
> - what do i get when i buy the CD?
> 
> binary cd, installation guide, and 60 days e-mail support.
> 
> - will redmond linux always be $19.95?
> 
> no.  the price will increase jan 1 2002.
> 
> - are source and devtools CD's available?
> 
> yes, by request.
> 
> - i bought a beta version.  will i receive a final version in the mail?
> 
> yes, look for it shortly.
> 
> - i want to purchase online but don't want to go through paypal.  is
> there another way?
> 
> there will be shortly.  send me e-mail for details.
> 
> - are there european distributors?
> 
> not yet.
> 
> - has RL been translated into any other languages?
> 
> not yet.  we expect an internationalized version to ship q1 2002 with
> support for several languages and keyboards.
> 
> - i want to contribute.  is there anything i can do?
> 
> yes!  we are looking for developers, testers, graphic designers,
> technical writers, and more.  e-mail with your interest.
> 
> - are these paid positions?
> 
> no.
> 
> - i found a bug.  to whom should i send it?
> 
> there will be a new bug entry link from our support pages soon.
> www.redmondlinux.org/go/support/.
> 
> - do you offer phone support?
> 
> yes, for a fee.
> 
> - what's next?
> 
> service pack 1, international version, and gamepak.
> www.redmondlinux.org/go/gamepak.
> 
> -
> --
> rl-announce list.  To leave, send "unsubscribe" without quotes in body of
> message to rl-announce-request@lists.redmondlinux.org.
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> From: Philippe FREMY <P.FREMY@OBERTHURCS.com>
> To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> Subject: RE: [kde-promo] Konqueror Online Banking
> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:31:11 +0100
> Reply-To: kde-promo@mail.kde.org
> 
> 
> 
> > I started setting up a list of online banking services at
> > http://home.in.tum.de/strutyns/banking (could be moved to
> > konqueror.org later
> > on) to gather and provide information about Konqueror's
> > interaction with
> > various banks. It is the purpose of that page to
> 
> Cool!
> 
> We should make this as public as possible. I just wrote a mail to my bank
> telling them that my browser was java and ssl enabled despite what they were
> claiming, but that I couldn't connect to their site. They said in their
> technical page that it was working on Windows, Mac and Linux, with IE :-)))
> 
> Although I don't expect much results, it would be a good place to point to.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Philippe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 
> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-promo to unsubscribe, set 
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> End of kde-promo Digest


Regards,

Shawn Gordon
President
theKompany.com
www.thekompany.com
949-713-3276


 
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