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List:       kde-pim
Subject:    Re: [Kde-pim] From a users point of view ....
From:       Anders Lund <anders () alweb ! dk>
Date:       2012-02-23 14:04:11
Message-ID: 2931956.mg8zL9SDgp () katja
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Torsdag den 23. februar 2012 13:40:44 Martin Steigerwald skrev:
> Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2012 schrieb Anders Lund:
> > Onsdag den 22. februar 2012 11:43:42 Marc Deop skrev:
> > > On Tuesday 21 February 2012 18:21:22 Denny wrote:
> > > > I could spent the whole day fixing new appearing Errors and Crashes
> > > > of kde - pim.
> > > > Is this just broken by design or why isn't there a working email
> > > > client for at least 4 years?
> > > > I thought with KDE 4.7.x we were over it and at least basic things
> > > > kinda worked stable again.
> > > > With KDE 4.8 now - nothing is working anymore, just to name a few
> > > > things annoying one one on a daily basis:
> > > > - Filters: broken
> > > > - Crashes : several per day
> > > > - email Addresses not recognised as you type
> > > > - password management : broken
> > > > - several empty windows popping up from ktimetracke at login ....
> > > > =

> > > > Am I supposed to create a new profile each and every time I upgrade
> > > > to a new version and scrap all my data?
> > > > =

> > > > Obviously, even Kontact PIM fans gave up by now. What I don't
> > > > understand is
> > > > why other kde developers step up helping fixing most annoying bugs,
> > > > as this
> > > > situation damages the whole kde experience.
> > > > =

> > > > Denny
> > > =

> > > With this attitude you aren't helping, at all.
> > > =

> > > Even though I aknowledge there are problems with the PIM suite, last
> > > think I would do is rant in here. Instead, offer your help debugging
> > > and triagging. *That* might help.
> > > =

> > > And to the developers: *THANKS* for all your effort and work on KDE.
> > > I'm sure it will become bugfree eventually :)
> > =

> > Marc,
> > =

> > While I share the appreciation of everyone working on free software and
> > kdepim, I still do not understand the desire to censor away
> > frustrations. Developers should be willing to harden themseleves a
> > bit, and realize that the user frustration comes from a desire to use
> > the software in question.
> =

> I think its not the frustration as such. Its the accusing tone I recognize
> in the mail from Denny. And the expectation that KDE developers owe any
> kind of - best immediate - remedy.
> =

> Frankly, they do not. Cause there is no contract between users of KDEPIM
> and the developers. No one has been paid for any negotiated amount of work
> except from Kolabsys as Georg Greve mentioned here.

This is where taking a deep breath helps. Much of the despair comes out of =

high expectations, which we learned to build up through the last decade.

> That said it is still just fine to want it to work better and to feel
> frustrated about that it isn=B4t holding up to own expectations.
> =

> But for anyone who wants to help to make it happen its important to shift
> the energy to resolving problems. So express your frustration from your
> point of view without accusing anyone for your pain, then be done with
> that and think what you can you offer to help getting things fixed.


> Of course there is some kind of relationship between developers and users.
> And of course ideally developers provide a suberb application that users
> love and users give praise for it and contribute back.
> =

> But how do you create a relationship that works this way? Is "Is this just
> broken by design?" and you owe me to fix it contributing in any way to su=
ch
> a kind of relation ship? In my perception it starts a downward spiral of
> accusing each other until someone holds in, stops it and starts to provide
> constructive feedback. And that means users and developers as well.

You have to ask yourself if the current level of complexity will hold up, =

don't you? But it could be nicer put, agreed.

> How instead would "I feel frustrated about this, this and this not
> working, I really do find it difficult to use KDEPIM 2 at all at the mome=
nt,
> how can I help or what can I do to get a different experience?" with some
> description of what "this, this and this" really is work out? How does th=
is
> feel differently for you?
> =

> The KDEPIM developers are not responsible for the pain you are suffering =
as
> a user. You are when you stick to KDEPIM 2 without helping to make it
> better. Your options are:
> =

> 1) Help to make it better.

Providing a way to do so would be good. Just "go help" might add to =

frustration, because it is unclear how to do that.

> 2) Switch clients.

I'm considerng that daily, but still sticking to kdepim in the hope that it =

will not take years before we get to a functional state. Call me silly...

> 3) Use a distro that actually means stable when it says stable. Debian
> still has KDEPIM 1 even up to KDE 4.7.4 experimental packages. KDEPIM is
> still at 4.4.5. And it just damn works - except some annoying but rather
> minor issue compared to what I read here regarding KDEPIM 2. Debian also
> did not put KDE 4.0 or 4.1 out to its users. These versions IMHO have not
> been ready for production yet.
> =

> I do use this option 3 in production and it serves me well.

1. It looks to me like the switch of major distributions, albeit throwing a =

lot of users in troubled water, have been what made the situation clear.

2. A lot of developers appear to tink, or did until very recent, that =

everything with kdepim 2 should be fine, at least that is the impression i =
get.

3. I used kdepim 4.4 until the release of kde 4.8 (apart from a very unhapp=
y =

test back in august), but while kmail in that version works fine, other =

applications - mainly korganizer in my case, was rottinging badly. Browsing =

calendars got to a point where it would take 30seconds to move the month vi=
ew =

one step. Both korganizer and kaddressbook, though still not perfect, have =

improved a lot with kdepim 2, making life much easier. So it is unfortunate=
ly =

not a simple descision.

4. I jumped in knowing it would not be easy, though the number of problems =
are =

still suprising to me.

> If you consider KDEPIM 2 not to be production ready then by all means help
> to make it so or switch clients.
> =

> Its simply as easy as that.

As what?

> And yes, you are entitled every right to feel frustrated about your
> expectations not being satisfied at the moment.
> =

> But please just don=B4t make someone else responsible for your self infli=
cted
> pain.

I used kmail since forever, it was part of the reason I felt giving up on =

windows 95 was the right choice - by far better than outlook express back =

then, as I remember it. It have been doing its job more than well up to now=
, =

and providing me with features that made me feel proud of being a FOSS user=
, =

as well as with superb workflows for many aspects of my life.

neither - feeling cool or having supercool workflows - are possible for me =

using kdepim software at this point (not with kdepim 4.4 either, as describ=
ed =

above). But yes, self-inflicted.

[...]

> > How about in the future, when someone takes the time to tell you about
> > his frustrations, instead of making people feel even worse by accusing
> > them of being stupid/bad/annoying because they react, offer a bit of
> > empathy and a startingpoint to help?
> > =

> > Maybe it is time to have a "how to help debugging
> > kmail/akonadi/nepomuk" page somwhere, and linking to it when
> > responding to unhappy users?
> =

> I like this idea.

So how do we get started? Adding a page to either userbase or techbase
* listing known problematic areas, indicating if work are being done to eac=
h =

area, and maybe list existing bug reports (to try to avoid more)
* if there are any, list tasks that can be done by non-technical users
* list possible tasks for technical users?

Would that be productive?

Should we start a thread for that here, getting out of this not so comforti=
ng =

one?

Anders

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