From kde-pim Thu Feb 23 14:04:11 2012 From: Anders Lund Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:04:11 +0000 To: kde-pim Subject: Re: [Kde-pim] From a users point of view .... Message-Id: <2931956.mg8zL9SDgp () katja> X-MARC-Message: https://marc.info/?l=kde-pim&m=133000602608551 Torsdag den 23. februar 2012 13:40:44 Martin Steigerwald skrev: > Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2012 schrieb Anders Lund: > > Onsdag den 22. februar 2012 11:43:42 Marc Deop skrev: > > > On Tuesday 21 February 2012 18:21:22 Denny wrote: > > > > I could spent the whole day fixing new appearing Errors and Crashes > > > > of kde - pim. > > > > Is this just broken by design or why isn't there a working email > > > > client for at least 4 years? > > > > I thought with KDE 4.7.x we were over it and at least basic things > > > > kinda worked stable again. > > > > With KDE 4.8 now - nothing is working anymore, just to name a few > > > > things annoying one one on a daily basis: > > > > - Filters: broken > > > > - Crashes : several per day > > > > - email Addresses not recognised as you type > > > > - password management : broken > > > > - several empty windows popping up from ktimetracke at login .... > > > > = > > > > Am I supposed to create a new profile each and every time I upgrade > > > > to a new version and scrap all my data? > > > > = > > > > Obviously, even Kontact PIM fans gave up by now. What I don't > > > > understand is > > > > why other kde developers step up helping fixing most annoying bugs, > > > > as this > > > > situation damages the whole kde experience. > > > > = > > > > Denny > > > = > > > With this attitude you aren't helping, at all. > > > = > > > Even though I aknowledge there are problems with the PIM suite, last > > > think I would do is rant in here. Instead, offer your help debugging > > > and triagging. *That* might help. > > > = > > > And to the developers: *THANKS* for all your effort and work on KDE. > > > I'm sure it will become bugfree eventually :) > > = > > Marc, > > = > > While I share the appreciation of everyone working on free software and > > kdepim, I still do not understand the desire to censor away > > frustrations. Developers should be willing to harden themseleves a > > bit, and realize that the user frustration comes from a desire to use > > the software in question. > = > I think its not the frustration as such. Its the accusing tone I recognize > in the mail from Denny. And the expectation that KDE developers owe any > kind of - best immediate - remedy. > = > Frankly, they do not. Cause there is no contract between users of KDEPIM > and the developers. No one has been paid for any negotiated amount of work > except from Kolabsys as Georg Greve mentioned here. This is where taking a deep breath helps. Much of the despair comes out of = high expectations, which we learned to build up through the last decade. > That said it is still just fine to want it to work better and to feel > frustrated about that it isn=B4t holding up to own expectations. > = > But for anyone who wants to help to make it happen its important to shift > the energy to resolving problems. So express your frustration from your > point of view without accusing anyone for your pain, then be done with > that and think what you can you offer to help getting things fixed. > Of course there is some kind of relationship between developers and users. > And of course ideally developers provide a suberb application that users > love and users give praise for it and contribute back. > = > But how do you create a relationship that works this way? Is "Is this just > broken by design?" and you owe me to fix it contributing in any way to su= ch > a kind of relation ship? In my perception it starts a downward spiral of > accusing each other until someone holds in, stops it and starts to provide > constructive feedback. And that means users and developers as well. You have to ask yourself if the current level of complexity will hold up, = don't you? But it could be nicer put, agreed. > How instead would "I feel frustrated about this, this and this not > working, I really do find it difficult to use KDEPIM 2 at all at the mome= nt, > how can I help or what can I do to get a different experience?" with some > description of what "this, this and this" really is work out? How does th= is > feel differently for you? > = > The KDEPIM developers are not responsible for the pain you are suffering = as > a user. You are when you stick to KDEPIM 2 without helping to make it > better. Your options are: > = > 1) Help to make it better. Providing a way to do so would be good. Just "go help" might add to = frustration, because it is unclear how to do that. > 2) Switch clients. I'm considerng that daily, but still sticking to kdepim in the hope that it = will not take years before we get to a functional state. Call me silly... > 3) Use a distro that actually means stable when it says stable. Debian > still has KDEPIM 1 even up to KDE 4.7.4 experimental packages. KDEPIM is > still at 4.4.5. And it just damn works - except some annoying but rather > minor issue compared to what I read here regarding KDEPIM 2. Debian also > did not put KDE 4.0 or 4.1 out to its users. These versions IMHO have not > been ready for production yet. > = > I do use this option 3 in production and it serves me well. 1. It looks to me like the switch of major distributions, albeit throwing a = lot of users in troubled water, have been what made the situation clear. 2. A lot of developers appear to tink, or did until very recent, that = everything with kdepim 2 should be fine, at least that is the impression i = get. 3. I used kdepim 4.4 until the release of kde 4.8 (apart from a very unhapp= y = test back in august), but while kmail in that version works fine, other = applications - mainly korganizer in my case, was rottinging badly. Browsing = calendars got to a point where it would take 30seconds to move the month vi= ew = one step. Both korganizer and kaddressbook, though still not perfect, have = improved a lot with kdepim 2, making life much easier. So it is unfortunate= ly = not a simple descision. 4. I jumped in knowing it would not be easy, though the number of problems = are = still suprising to me. > If you consider KDEPIM 2 not to be production ready then by all means help > to make it so or switch clients. > = > Its simply as easy as that. As what? > And yes, you are entitled every right to feel frustrated about your > expectations not being satisfied at the moment. > = > But please just don=B4t make someone else responsible for your self infli= cted > pain. I used kmail since forever, it was part of the reason I felt giving up on = windows 95 was the right choice - by far better than outlook express back = then, as I remember it. It have been doing its job more than well up to now= , = and providing me with features that made me feel proud of being a FOSS user= , = as well as with superb workflows for many aspects of my life. neither - feeling cool or having supercool workflows - are possible for me = using kdepim software at this point (not with kdepim 4.4 either, as describ= ed = above). But yes, self-inflicted. [...] > > How about in the future, when someone takes the time to tell you about > > his frustrations, instead of making people feel even worse by accusing > > them of being stupid/bad/annoying because they react, offer a bit of > > empathy and a startingpoint to help? > > = > > Maybe it is time to have a "how to help debugging > > kmail/akonadi/nepomuk" page somwhere, and linking to it when > > responding to unhappy users? > = > I like this idea. So how do we get started? Adding a page to either userbase or techbase * listing known problematic areas, indicating if work are being done to eac= h = area, and maybe list existing bug reports (to try to avoid more) * if there are any, list tasks that can be done by non-technical users * list possible tasks for technical users? Would that be productive? Should we start a thread for that here, getting out of this not so comforti= ng = one? Anders _______________________________________________ KDE PIM mailing list kde-pim@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-pim KDE PIM home page at http://pim.kde.org/